Anyone tempted to trade in for this?

[Victorofhavoc]

Lol.

As an aside, thanks for being a good sport about my ribbing. Some people would have gotten defensive and thrown a temper tantrum. I like the cut of your jib.

Back to reality, I do actually have strong emotions around the Audi RS cars. I've loved them since the first time I saw (and heard) a B8 RS4. To me it's one of the most beautiful sedans ever made, the engine is one of the best sounding and smoothest power delivery v8s ever made, and the interior is always top in its class. That's kind of Audi's formula; and as such, they're absolutely fantastic street cars. But they completely lack the dimension that the ITS has from a "driver's car" perspective, not to mention the track capability. None of the Audis (except one I'll get to in a minute) have ever offered a compelling track experience. I'd even throw the R8 in that mix. Although give me a gated v10 manual (or the v8 as I mentioned earlier...) and I'll have a good time. Just not really in a track setting.

The new RS5 is of course intriguing- I'd be lying if I didn't say I get "the FIZZ" just looking at the design. But I just also get a gag reflex knowing all the cost, weight, and complexity that all that extra technology brings with the hybrid system and the trick diffs... the one and only hybrid car that ever got me excited was the McLaren Artura. And honestly, look what's happened with that car. Resale plummeted, enthusiast sentiment along with it because there's been all sorts of problems... and at that price point there's just too many other options (ahem- GT3RS) to consider.

That's where the new RS5 lives for me. I saw Henry Catchpole tossing it around a track and seemed to having a good time so maybe it's even a great car. I just have almost zero interest in it because the whole concept is just going backwards for me, personally.

Plus as almost everything these days it's just outrageously expensive. I bought a B9.5 RS5 in 2021 for $78k and thought it was too much then. $125k? Who the hell is this car for? I'm sure there are plenty of enthusiasts who can afford that but again- what's their use case? Best bet is it wouldn't involve a track, or even a routine Sunday trip through a canyon or back road. Just starts making less and less sense from that perspective.

Now, while we're on the topic of Audis let's talk about the RS3. The last vestige of an Audi with a soul. THAT car belongs in this conversation. I've already typed enough but there's a part of me that literally always is thinking about buying an RS3. The driving dynamics and chassis are not as good as the DE5, but the engine and elevated refinement make up for it. The only thing that continues to push it behind the DE5 for me is the lack of a manual.

On a long enough timeline, I can still see an RS3 in my future. It could even replace the DE5- but only if I replace the DE5 with a car that fills the gaps. I've got my eyes on a DC2 Type R. THAT would be my ideal enthusiast garage...

I like the rs3 but it's definitely numb and you can feel the weight at the front end. It's not just an alignment away from better handling, but certainly closer than any amg car. Like any other modern car, electronics convince the driver into thinking understeer is "neutral and grippy".

It's funny though, the rs3 fights weight, being inherently fwd, mcstrut design, e-diff trickery, and massive heat/power to deliver its steering feel. The rs5 on the other hand has the longitudinal design, better suspension design, but still fails in the weight distribution, weight, and heat categories. The bmw awd systems are just as numb. I think it's good they're hybridizing and adding the weight. They can cover some of the stench of automotive death by weight with electric throttle response. While your butt, hands, and hearing will all be numbed down, at least the lizard part of your brain will go "hehe" when stomping it on a highway.

Sponsored

 

[f87M2 to Integra Type S]

I owned an RS3 for about 6 months. One of the most disappointing cars I've ever owned. Constantly reminds you that it's a FWD platform and trying to use trickery to tell you it's not. Cornering felt extremely inorganic to me with how the torque splitter was distributing power. I appreciate that the ITS just owns its FWD factor and uses the weight savings to its advantage. Obviously this isn't the RS3's goal however. It has to be a luxury car and Audi relies on its AWD marketing.

5 cyl sounded good, but wasn't this earth shattering baby v10 that everyone talks about. That said, I'm sure it would open up with an exhaust set up. Car is fast in a straight line, but it's sort of a one trick pony. Similar to other Audis, it's fast around a track, but very artificial. Build quality was decent and sound system was just ok. In total, it's nowhere near as good of a drivers car as the ITS IMO. For the same price range, I would pick up an M2 over that car every day (speaking from someone even in a cold climate w/ snow). You quickly realize the inherent advantages of the CLAR BMW architecture versus the MQB that the RS3 is built on. I've owned two G87s (long story, I hop in and out of cars quickly) and it's a far superior platform and it comes with a manual (albeit mediocre one).

I get the appeal of AWD in inclement weather, but I'd prefer to just utilize the correct tire and have a car that isn't as compromised in it's handling to achieve straight line speed in all scenarios.

 

[ABPDE5]

I like the rs3 but it's definitely numb and you can feel the weight at the front end. It's not just an alignment away from better handling, but certainly closer than any amg car. Like any other modern car, electronics convince the driver into thinking understeer is "neutral and grippy".

It's funny though, the rs3 fights weight, being inherently fwd, mcstrut design, e-diff trickery, and massive heat/power to deliver its steering feel. The rs5 on the other hand has the longitudinal design, better suspension design, but still fails in the weight distribution, weight, and heat categories. The bmw awd systems are just as numb. I think it's good they're hybridizing and adding the weight. They can cover some of the stench of automotive death by weight with electric throttle response. While your butt, hands, and hearing will all be numbed down, at least the lizard part of your brain will go "hehe" when stomping it on a highway.

And, this is where I think performance EVs start to make more sense (assuming charging is available in your area). At this price point, new and used EVs with similar weight and better performance are available. A similarly-priced Taycan (4S) actually weighs LESS than the new RS5 and will have better torque delivery with less complexity, lower CoG, and better weight distribution.

I'm not an EV enthusiast; I ask this as someone who is looking to supplement their ITS with a clean AP1, E92, or 987.2 in the next couple years and as someone who tries to push all my automatic-bound, luxury conscious friends into lightly used LC500s every time they go looking for a two-door car:

When an ICE vehicle no longer provides the feedback and emotion we associate with great ICE driver's cars, when they weigh MORE than an EV, when their ultra-complex, hybrid powertrains have abandoned any semblance of character, soul, or sound in an attempt to get as close to mimicking electric power delivery curves as possible, when the only point of the car is to be fast in a straight line, luxurious, and expensive -- why pick it over an EV that is faster, more luxurious, and has a much better center of gravity and weight distribution, etc.?

What does the new RS5 do better than a Taycan 4S? Perhaps the depreciation isn't as bad? To which point, if you're buying one lightly used in a couple years, isn't the Taycan a no-brainer in this comparison?

To those who find this car interesting: feel free to enlighten me. I'm not trying to be an asshole; I just generally don't understand the point of this class of ICE car.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

And, this is where I think performance EVs start to make more sense (assuming charging is available in your area). At this price point, new and used EVs with similar weight and better performance are available. A similarly-priced Taycan (4S) actually weighs LESS than the new RS5 and will have better torque delivery with less complexity, lower CoG, and better weight distribution.

I'm not an EV enthusiast; I ask this as someone who is looking to supplement their ITS with a clean AP1, E92, or 987.2 in the next couple years and as someone who tries to push all my automatic-bound, luxury conscious friends into lightly used LC500s every time they go looking for a two-door car:

When an ICE vehicle no longer provides the feedback and emotion we associate with great ICE driver's cars, when they weigh MORE than an EV, when their ultra-complex, hybrid powertrains have abandoned any semblance of character, soul, or sound in an attempt to get as close to mimicking electric power delivery curves as possible, when the only point of the car is to be fast in a straight line, luxurious, and expensive -- why pick it over an EV that is faster, more luxurious, and has a much better center of gravity and weight distribution, etc.?

What does the new RS5 do better than a Taycan 4S? Perhaps the depreciation isn't as bad? To which point, if you're buying one lightly used in a couple years, isn't the Taycan a no-brainer in this comparison?

To those who find this car interesting: feel free to enlighten me. I'm not trying to be an asshole; I just generally don't understand the point of this class of ICE car.

I will hopefully get a chance to drive the rs5 and see how it goes, but we'll see... Not there yet.

I've driven the new M5 though... It's not a sports car. It's not a v10 rocket dressed on magnesium and strategic carbon placement. It is a wonderfully luxurious ride though, and everything feels like money. If I could punch through the 18lbs of bolstering and motors, I might just strike gold. It's also fun to hustle around. It doesn't feel like it weighs as much as a truck. Power is wild. Brakes are where the magic disappears. You suddenly feel the weight after 5 or 6 hard stops. The brakes get hot and grabby. The weight and electronic magic becomes apparent. It's a nearly perfect car on the way to 7/10ths (my personal street limit, I don't push a car harder on the street) ,but I suspect in a true track setting it will be like all other sporty street cars that aren't track oriented sports cars; hot, sticky, and screechy.

I think that's okay, honestly. A lot of people will never set foot on a track, and many others will go just a few times. It's an expensive hobby after all, and at the weight and power/pace of those cars it's even more wild. Better for them to optimize for the occasional highway blaster, which is really the dominant car enthusiast market imo.

I've driven the Mach e gt, rivian r1s, and etron. I don't like one pedal drive... Nope nope nope. Those cars aren't just for bad drivers, they MAKE you an awful driver. Sure, you can teleport from one car gap to another faster than a nose hair tickle, but should you?

 

[ABPDE5]

I will hopefully get a chance to drive the rs5 and see how it goes, but we'll see... Not there yet.

I've driven the new M5 though... It's not a sports car. It's not a v10 rocket dressed on magnesium and strategic carbon placement. It is a wonderfully luxurious ride though, and everything feels like money. If I could punch through the 18lbs of bolstering and motors, I might just strike gold. It's also fun to hustle around. It doesn't feel like it weighs as much as a truck. Power is wild. Brakes are where the magic disappears. You suddenly feel the weight after 5 or 6 hard stops. The brakes get hot and grabby. The weight and electronic magic becomes apparent. It's a nearly perfect car on the way to 7/10ths (my personal street limit, I don't push a car harder on the street) ,but I suspect in a true track setting it will be like all other sporty street cars that aren't track oriented sports cars; hot, sticky, and screechy.

I think that's okay, honestly. A lot of people will never set foot on a track, and many others will go just a few times. It's an expensive hobby after all, and at the weight and power/pace of those cars it's even more wild. Better for them to optimize for the occasional highway blaster, which is really the dominant car enthusiast market imo.

I've driven the Mach e gt, rivian r1s, and etron. I don't like one pedal drive... Nope nope nope. Those cars aren't just for bad drivers, they MAKE you an awful driver. Sure, you can teleport from one car gap to another faster than a nose hair tickle, but should you?

They all allow for 2 pedal driving, don't they? At least the Rivian / Audi? I was under the impression the Porsche does (in fact only Tesla forces 1 pedal)?

 

[Victorofhavoc]

They all allow for 2 pedal driving, don't they? At least the Rivian / Audi? I was under the impression the Porsche does (in fact only Tesla forces 1 pedal)?

They do, but you make sacrifices... Like much lower regen. It's funny watching impatient tesla drivers! Brake lights go on, off, on, off, on, off, on, off... And that's just every 50ft in traffic

 

[STi from DSM]

@optronix I agree with your ribbing. Lol. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I know I shouldn't like it but am ashamed to say I do. Kind of like a Justin Bieber song or something of that nature. There is no reason to like it but something just works with it, lol.
The RS3 also holds a special place in my head as well. I saw a 2024 Certified RS3 for sale at my Audi dealer this weekend in Turbo Blue which is my favorite Audi color of all time. It took a lot to pass on that, lol.

 

[optronix]

I also understand that the RS3 is an imperfect car, and that's precisely the reason I don't have one in my garage right now. In my mind, an RS3 would make a perfect "daily" for me, and also one I could rip up an autocross course in occasionally. But it wouldn't be my primary fun car because of all the reasons mentioned. I had an S3 a few years back and it filled that daily role perfectly... especially because at the time it was paired with a 981 Boxster GTS manual. I REALLY had no reason to shift from that alignment, it was a nearly perfect garage.

I think a pairing of a cherry DC2 Type R and an RS3 would come pretty close to matching that energy. The S3 was a great car to just get in and go places, and was also fantastic in the winter. An RS3 would be a categorical upgrade in that sense. A DC2 compared to a 981 Boxster, especially in GTS form isn't necessarily a fair comparison as it wouldn't completely match the "theater" of a droptop naturally aspirated mid-engine Porsche, but the classic analog sensations and pure nostalgia of a late 90s JDM superhero I think could make up for it.

I'm making moves to make at least the DC2 part happen relatively soon. Still not sure about the RS3 but having at least one car without a manual for DC traffic sounds pretty appealing...

But all of that said, the DE5 slots in as a single do-it-all car for my use case better than anything else available at any price. I'm also keeping an eye on what the refresh brings for both the DE5 and FL5 next year. Depending on what that looks like could change the calculus again.

Sponsored