What’s it gonna take to get you to buy a Type S?

[bullitt]

All your points are correct. Hence why I said the consumer would just take their business elsewhere. For me personally I don't care if the "performance Integra" has 250hp or hell even 210hp. I will be coming from a 158hp Civic. Don't you have a Mustang that would probably walk the Integra Type S and TLX Type S? why does it matter so much to you if it has 250, 272, 306 HP?

Because If I'm going to get a car in the entry level luxury market I want it to be fun and competitive in that market. other wise why get it over anything else? If its not going to be any quicker or nicer than a much cheaper Mazda 3 turbo, why not just get that? If it's going to be more a direct competitor to a GTI in features and performance than for S3 money why not just get the S3?

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[Mannyp93]

Because If I'm going to get a car in the entry level luxury market I want it to be fun and competitive in that market. other wise why get it over anything else? If its not going to be any quicker or nicer than a much cheaper Mazda 3 turbo, why not just get that? If it's going to be more a direct competitor to a GTI in features and performance than for S3 money why not just get the S3?

What do you mean by competitive in that market? Are you buying the car for yourself and your personal happiness or for others to know you have the best car in it's class? I'm genuinely curious because I don't drive around going "look at that guy in his Supra, doesn't he know it's just a BMW or HA he bought a VW Golf when the Civic is clearly the best it's segment".

Also I would much rather have an underpowered Type S than pay the long term maintenance on any german car.

 

[bullitt]

What do you mean by competitive in that market? Are you buying the car for yourself and your personal happiness or for others to know you have the best car in it's class? I'm genuinely curious because I don't drive around going "look at that guy in his Supra, doesn't he know it's just a BMW or HA he bought a VW Golf when the Civic is clearly the best it's segment".

Also I would much rather have an underpowered Type S than pay the long term maintenance on any german car.

I'm well known for hating VW reliability. I'd easily take the VW if the difference is saving 5k and having an available manual, or spending 3k more to get AWD and 63HP more, also with a manual.

If I'm gonna spend 40k on a car I'm not gonna randomly compromise just because I like the name. At 40K and 252HP what's the reason to get it vs ANY of its competition, and yes ALL these cars will be cross shopped and they WILL be compared in magazines and reviews wether or not they are "entry level luxury" or not.

252hp FWD for 39-40K - Integra
250HP AWD for 36K - Mazda 3
241HP FWD for 35K - GTI
315hp AWD for 43k - Golf R
252HP FWD for 38K - Accord
271HP AWD for 36K - WRX
272HP AWD for 41K - TLX
Yes some will also be cross shopping the new CTR as well.

In all those comparisons the Integra with only 252HP is the WORST bang/buck even against other Honda/Acura vehicles, and unless you just prefer the looks there is no reason to not save thousands and get something else. But if it were to be 272HP THEN it is much more compelling in its market as it has more power than many of the cheaper cars or the same power as cars prices almost the same. I like the integra's looks, but not enough to spend a few extra grand on it. I also very much like the looks of the GTI, Mazda 3 and TLX and to me, all 3 are a better car for the dollar if the Type-S is that ball less for the price.

Please tell me ONE reason other than "I just like the looks" why a 252HP Type-S would be at all compelling over any of those cars in a way that makes up for the price differences.

Heck if the type-S is THAT gutless I'd just save 8k and buy an Altima again now that you can get one with 248 2.0T.

 

[Mannyp93]

I'm well known for hating VW reliability. I'd easily take the VW if the difference is saving 5k and having an available manual, or spending 3k more to get AWD and 63HP more, also with a manual.

If I'm gonna spend 40k on a car I'm not gonna randomly compromise just because I like the name. At 40K and 252HP what's the reason to get it vs ANY of its competition, and yes ALL these cars will be cross shopped and they WILL be compared in magazines and reviews wether or not they are "entry level luxury" or not.

252hp FWD for 39-40K - Integra
250HP AWD for 36K - Mazda 3
241HP FWD for 35K - GTI
315hp AWD for 43k - Golf R
252HP FWD for 38K - Accord
271HP AWD for 36K - WRX
272HP AWD for 41K - TLX

In all those comparisons the Integra with only 252HP is the WORST bang/buck even against other Honda/Acura vehicles, and unless you just prefer the looks there is no reason to not save thousands and get something else. But if it were to be 272HP THEN it is much more compelling in its market as it has more power than many of the cheaper cars or the same power as cars prices almost the same. I like the integra's looks, but not enough to spend a few extra grand on it. I also very much like the looks of the GTI, Mazda 3 and TLX and to me, all 3 are a better car for the dollar if the Type-S is that ball less for the price.

Please tell me ONE reason other than "I just like the looks" why a 252HP Type-S would be at all compelling over any of those cars in a way that makes up for the price differences.

Sure thing. After this one just PM me if you want to keep this going. I don't want to clog the chat with our banter.

The Integra will offer more rear hatch, and rear occupant space than the Mazda 3, GTI and Golf R. The Accord and TLX are not even in this same class. I don't need a car that large currently, and the WRX is not pleasant to look at. Those are my personal reasons, I know everyone has different wants and needs though. So for me hypothetically going from 158hp to 252hp is 100% ok. Sure I could get the A-Spec Tech but I like the Type S look more.

 

[urbanglowcam]

Type-S is a PERFORMANCE line, so yes good performance is expected.

Q50 Red Stort 400HP
Lincoln MKZ 400HP
Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing 472hp
Also, entry level luxury with 400HP+ In the first 2 cases, much cheaper than the TLX Type-S.

In the rest of its class the BMW and Audi both handle much better than the TLX Type-S.

Taurus SHO
Stinger GT
Not even luxury, with more power. Ones even a decade old at this point.

If a Type-S Integra has anything less than the 272HP 2.0T it will be a JOKE against the direct and indirect competition as much of it is just under or just over 300HP. More so when its nearly the only in one in its class with no AWD option.

No one cares about if its "the downfall" of the company or not. That's not going to change if the car is a disappointment vs its competition in many measures. And at 250HP for almost 40K it would disappoint in EVERY metric other than "the cheapest option" Which at 40K and 250HP the GTI, and Mazda 3 are both massively better buys. It will be losing to NON luxury cars at that point.

Though I agree the Integra Type S should offer more power than some are suggesting here, some of your example vehicles don't feel relevant here. I realize they are entry level, but they're still on a different performance level from the Integra here. The Infiniti and Cadillac are still more expensive than the TLX Type S btw. The Lincoln MKZ and Taurus are dead.

The Kia Stinger GT1 however is a good example of a car that Acura should not overlook for the Integra. It will undercut on price and offer more power with a RWD platform. On the other hand, it weighs significantly more so the different in performance is not as big as those numbers show.

I think the Acura Integra Type S will rightfully fall between a Mercedes CLA 250 and CLA 35 in price and performance and probably undercut the Audi S3 in price, but offer less in straight line acceleration.

 

[bullitt]

Sure thing. After this one just PM me if you want to keep this going. I don't want to clog the chat with our banter.

The Integra will offer more rear hatch, and rear occupant space than the Mazda 3, GTI and Golf R. The Accord and TLX are not even in this same class. I don't need a car that large currently, and the WRX is not pleasant to look at. Those are my personal reasons, I know everyone has different wants and needs though. So for me hypothetically going from 158hp to 252hp is 100% ok. Sure I could get the A-Spec Tech but I like the Type S look more.

Yes, and the car being the worst performance while giving me NOTHING I find of value to make up for that out of all its competition is my reason. If it were 252 with manual and AWD then I'd have reason to try and make arguments over the WRX and Mazda 3 for it. But just 252hp, FWD for 40K? That doesn't even attempt to sound like a fun car to me. I'd easily drop the 50HP to save and get a A-Spec with a manual or save 12K and get an Si then put a tune on either. 50HP is NOT worth the return on 3-5k.

 

[bullitt]

Though I agree the Integra Type S should offer more power than some are suggesting here, some of your example vehicles don't feel relevant here. I realize they are entry level, but they're still on a different performance level from the Integra here. The Infiniti and Cadillac are still more expensive than the TLX Type S btw. The Lincoln MKZ and Taurus are dead.

The Kia Stinger GT1 however is a good example of a car that Acura should not overlook for the Integra. It will undercut on price and offer more power with a RWD platform. On the other hand, it weighs significantly more so the different in performance is not as big as those numbers show.

I think the Acura Integra Type S will rightfully fall between a Mercedes CLA 250 and CLA 35 in price and performance and probably undercut the Audi S3 in price, but offer less in straight line acceleration.

The Cadillac still sells for MSRP due to it being refreshed, but the Infiniti Red Sport can be had fully loaded out the door new for 50K. I know because that literally what I paid for mine in 2018 and others were managing to get them for high 40's.

 

[urbanglowcam]

The Cadillac still sells for MSRP due to it being refreshed, but the Infiniti Red Sport can be had fully loaded out the door new for 50K. I know because that literally what I paid for mine in 2018 and others were managing to get them for high 40's.

If we're talking market value for these cars then the Cadillac CT4-V Blackwings are listed in the 70k range. I'm just talking MSRP to keep this apples to apples.

Anyways, I agree with you that 250hp for the ITS would be disappointing. I don't think ~300hp is too much to ask for considering the 2017 CTR was putting this out. Maybe the reveal of the new CTR will give us clues.

 

[bullitt]

If we're talking market value for these cars then the Cadillac CT4-V Blackwings are listed in the 70k range. I'm just talking MSRP to keep this apples to apples.

Anyways, I agree with you that 250hp for the ITS would be disappointing. I don't think ~300hp is too much to ask for considering the 2017 CTR was putting this out. Maybe the reveal of the new CTR will give us clues.

I'd be just fine with even the 272 if the car handles very well vs it competition.

 

[TigerEyeJazz]

Completely different classes that most are comparing a Integra Type S based on pricing.
Integra Type S main competitor are: BMW M235i GC, Audi S3, Mercedes CLA 43 AMG, CT4 V.

In direct competitors: VW GTi/R, Elantra N, Mazda 3 Turbo.

The class the Integra Type S is in is crowded but has nothing to do with the class above it so TLX, Q50, Stinger, A4, 3er, C-Klass.

I personally never buy a car that has the most HP or best time around the Ring or has every bit of luxury in it. I buy a car for what I like. My class of car is Compact. I love hatchbacks and have always had one since I first started driving. The Integra and Integra S will both offer the things I primarily look for. It not like I’m going to go on the track and track it and for that matter most people who buy the class above or even mid tier performance models don’t track it. They get it because that’s what the person’s heart desires.

 

[urbanglowcam]

Completely different classes that most are comparing a Integra Type S based on pricing.
Integra Type S main competitor are: BMW M235i GC, Audi S3, Mercedes CLA 43 AMG, CT4 V.

In direct competitors: VW GTi/R, Elantra N, Mazda 3 Turbo.

The class the Integra Type S is in is crowded but has nothing to do with the class above it so TLX, Q50, Stinger, A4, 3er, C-Klass.

I personally never buy a car that has the most HP or best time around the Ring or has every bit of luxury in it. I buy a car for what I like. My class of car is Compact. I love hatchbacks and have always had one since I first started driving. The Integra and Integra S will both offer the things I primarily look for. It not like I’m going to go on the track and track it and for that matter most people who buy the class above or even mid tier performance models don’t track it. They get it because that’s what the person’s heart desires.

I agree, but threw the Stinger into the mix since it seems to get brought up a lot in discussions regarding the Integra which means people might actually be cross shopping it. It is in a very similar price range and is TECHNICALLY a performance hatch. I'm no marketing expert, but they both seem to target the younger adult demographic.

Your list of competition is pretty spot on to me though and similar to what I was mentioning above. I also agree that spec wars are silly and the feel and dynamics of the car are more important. Still, the car should have a competitive powertrain and I think the 2.0T directly from the CTR makes the most sense ESPECIALLY if they are upgrading it on the new version.

 

[urbanglowcam]

I currently have an S2000 and have been waiting nearly 2 decades for a new version from Honda. Since they never released something between an S660 and NSX, this or the CTR are kind of my next closest thing in terms of offering a manual, performance, and price, albeit bigger FWD cars.

The S2000 holds up to some similar cars today in terms of feel and performance, but I hope the ITS can offer noticeably more performance considering it has 20+ years newer tech.

 

[TigerEyeJazz]

I agree, but threw the Stinger into the mix since it seems to get brought up a lot in discussions regarding the Integra which means people might actually be cross shopping it. It is in a very similar price range and is TECHNICALLY a performance hatch. I'm no marketing expert, but they both seem to target the younger adult demographic.

Your list of competition is pretty spot on to me though and similar to what I was mentioning above. I also agree that spec wars are silly and the feel and dynamics of the car are more important. Still, the car should have a competitive powertrain and I think the 2.0T directly from the CTR makes the most sense ESPECIALLY if they are upgrading it on the new version.

No I totally understand where you are coming from with the Stinger. They both target the performance enthusiast but also the adventure goers with the hatch/Liftback style.

Engine wise it logically you would think the R engine would do but idk I feel like Honda has this weird thing about models that aren’t R’s get R engines. I’m patiently wait to see and hear more about the S. though I’m looking forward to getting the A-Spec and then switch it for the Type S to give an opinion on how the cars feel differently toward each other.

 

[urbanglowcam]

No I totally understand where you are coming from with the Stinger. They both target the performance enthusiast but also the adventure goers with the hatch/Liftback style.

Engine wise it logically you would think the R engine would do but idk I feel like Honda has this weird thing about models that aren’t R’s get R engines. I’m patiently wait to see and hear more about the S. though I’m looking forward to getting the A-Spec and then switch it for the Type S to give an opinion on how the cars feel differently toward each other.

You could be right. The fact that the RDX / Accord use the same block with a lower output does open that up as a possibility. I just hope they give it the extra ~30hp it deserves for their halo car's top performance trim.

 

[TigerEyeJazz]

You could be right. The fact that the RDX / Accord use the same block with a lower output does open that up as a possibility. I just hope they give it the extra ~30hp it deserves for their halo car's top performance trim.

Yeah Integra is now the Halo while MDX is the Flagship.

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