Hagerty races 2023 Integra vs. GLI, Elantra N, Bronco Raptor, DC2 Integra Type R

[jd2157]

The answer to all problems… Type S

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[NeoDiNardo]

Yessss, let the power of the Type-S distract you. Even I would question the need for most ATs with Type-S or Type-R levels of power, braking, and handling. That added power and handling makes a huge difference when driving a manual around town, as it makes third gear less of a necessity and more of an option. And the power is not way too much for the street as in a Mach 1 Mustang. I’d likely still opt for a fancy dual clutch if possible. Or just have two cars, one stick for bombing roads on weekends, and something easy to drive for everyday use. If I had to keep my current 2023 Integra 6MT it would not be the worse thing, I would just self upgrade the driver seat foam somehow to be better bolstered and more comfy (or just jam in TLX Type-S seats lol,), do what AHC did with the PRL intake and exhaust stuff, add stiffer springs that are not too low, get a Hondata tune, a better clutch, forged 19-inch rims, and performance summer tires. And I’d get the illuminated front A-mark, the carbon fiber spoiler, carbon fiber mirror caps, side under spoilers, and the illuminated door plates. I could be happy with that. But by the time I do all that I could just trade in for a 2023 TLX Type-S or a 2024 Integra Type-S, and I’m curious to see how an RDX Type-S would turn out given its lighter weight vs the MDX Type-S. The 11th Gen CTR has impressed me greatly and now the GR Corolla just looks like it’s far behind too much interior wise and tech wise and it’s AWD is not enough to make up for it.

 

[RRP RSX-S]

I agree, it just depends on where you are on stick shift versus automatic. If you really want to shift definitely buy a manual. And if you are energetic and don’t mind the work, enjoy that 200HP manual that you have to work more often. I did just that several times, I’ve been stick shifting various 200HP Civic Si’s most of my life, and the shifting is always fun. Until you hit traffic of course. I’m just tired, ready for a break with a sporty faster automatic, or at least something less demanding with more manual power. I want the cool automatic features like remote star and automatic low speed traffic follow. I want to accelerate with ease, grace, and precision. I want no brainer low gas mileage. And I’m willing to give up that fun stick shifting feeling to get that. You may not be willing to do so. I think ideally I’d have both types of cars, a manual for the weekends and an automatic for the weekdays. Or paddle shifters that was actually manual and not computer driven system that only accepts your inputs as suggestions. And no one can tell you your personal preference, a test drive will not completely solve this for you, you have to experience the car for yourself over time. That new Integra could be your endgame vehicle for all I know. It could do everything you really want. There is only one way to find out really, draw upon your experiences and what you have heard, and take a chance on your best educated guess for your next vehicle. If you strike out, trade it in after 3 years and try again.

You’re 100% right. It’s just preference. I’m fortunate to have a 6 speed v8 for the weekends. Or whenever I want to row. But it’s nice to have the auto. And what’s nice about acuras CVT tuning vs their 10 speed tuning is that in S, it’ll go all the way to the redline. The paddles are extremely quick and responsive. Plus in heavy traffic, being able to “barely drive” with stop and go cruise is also great.

 

[RRP RSX-S]

I'm sure your not going to be racing other cars and the car isn't lethargic at all. When I need to pass cars the car has enough power to do it even in 6th gear. I am on 93 octane not sure what everyone is using but I never feel like I need power to pass people

Agreed, she is very quick for passing.

 

[RRP RSX-S]

The answer to all problems… Type S

If the type s comes in some form of auto, I’ll consider it. I just hope they somehow make it a 2023 MY. I have a thing for 3’s.

 

[NeoDiNardo]

If only the CVT had a LSD then, great to hear your CVT Integra experiences. I’m not as down on the stick as I was earlier this week, but I still think I will want something, more power, dual clutch Type-S Integra, I dunno. I’m just going to drive this for a year and reassess then. Otherwise I just drive myself nuts double guessing. And do you see that PRL turbo drop in upgrade? I’ll still wait for a Type-S Integra though, just to have the better base car before upgrading. That was the original plan anyway. I can alway buy a second RDX TS or something and have both vehicles. The new CTR is exciting too.

I almost put a CTR LSD in a 2019 Accord Sport 2.0T 6MT. It should work as a drop in part, but nobody has ever tried to my knowledge. That’s how much I love a good LSD.

 

[RRP RSX-S]

If only the CVT had a LSD then, great to hear your CVT Integra experiences. I’m not as down on the stick as I was earlier this week, but I still think I will want something, more power, dual clutch Type-S Integra, I dunno. I’m just going to drive this for a year and reassess then. Otherwise I just drive myself nuts double guessing.

For sure. Don’t second guess at all.

For the LSD, I can’t really speak. My RSX type S didn’t have one. My mustang does but it’s rwd. So I’ve never driven a fwd with lsd. From what reviewers have said though, about it clawing out of corners, I feel like the CVT still does that. I can load up the front end and enduce oversteer. Or have it yank itself through. She handles very well on very sharp twisties. Only thing I want is a bit more throttle response from a tune and tires. Is it possible the CVT is set up to not need the lsd? Maybe that’s why it doesn’t have it?

 

[NeoDiNardo]

As I understand it, in a RWD car the back wheels drive and the front wheels steer, they have separate jobs to do so the car’s grip is better for it. In a FWD car the front wheels have to do both jobs, so the maximum grip is always comprised to some degree right off the bat, and especially so when turning. But what if you could improve on that situation? Enter mechanical LSDs and brake vectoring LSDs.

In a turn, or just due to the current grip situation of the separate tires driving straight, rain, uneven parchment, turning g-forces ETC, the power of the driving wheels is not evenly needed on both of the driving wheels, especially in a spirited turn, as the turning forces put a bit more weight on the inside wheel, and thus the inside wheel needs to spin faster than the outside wheel for the drive forces to be equal on both sides, which is what you want for effective forward momentum. This helps a RWD car spin it’s rear driving wheels more evenly. Even on an AWD car it is helpful, although with all wheels spinning it is less needed, a GR Corolla has AWD but also dual front and back mechanical LSDs. The corner handling of that car should be stellar.

However, this helps FWD cars especially as they do have less help from the other tires and have more work to do on the same tires, so maximizing grip with even contact power is even more important. Otherwise one side of the driving wheels will spin ineffectivly faster than the other side which needs more power to compensate. And that’s what a good mechanical LSD does, it balances which wheel needs more power and puts that power on that wheel to help it out, and it’s all via a passive mechanical gear system, and works by making one wheel go faster than the other. Break vectoring does the same thing but works by making the other wheel slower by breaking with precision, which is still breaking and not accelerating, and this eats your break pads up a bit more. While I think a mechanical LSD needs more actual maintenance over the long haul. Pick your poison, but I think mechanical LSDs might feel more natrual as it is not breaking the brakes to accomplish the goal, even if it’s only a small amount of precision braking on one side only. That is why they say in the reviews “I can feel the car pulling me out of (or clawing out of) a corner more effectively due to the mechanical LSD”. With SH-AWD, it sends up to 70% of the power to the rear wheels and then 100% of that 70% to the rear wheel that needs it the most. Same stuff, different mechanical torque vectoring approach, and that’s just for the TLX’s back wheels, the front wheels on the SH-AWD TLX is still brake vectoring LSDs. Brake vectoring LSDs are more popular nowadays due to the simplicity and lower cost. Brake vectoring LSDs can be very, very good systems, but I think mechanical LSDs just have a tendency to be more natural and better.

At least that’s my limited understanding of it all. I’m sure I’m not 100% right on every detail, but I humbly think I’m within the same ballpark of understanding. I believe I can tell a difference in a FWD car without an LSD system. On the 2019 Accord Sport 2.0T 6MT without an LSD it didn’t carve in and out of corners nearly as good as a Civic Si with a mechanical LSD. Some of that was weight and the chassis but not all of it. It was also the missing LSD. In fact, I almost put in a 2019 CTR LSD in that manual Accord as it was rumored to work, similar engine and similar manual transmission, it should have worked in theory, but I never got the chance. You can’t do this with the 10-Speed AT Accords as it is a different transmission design, so thats also why the Integras and Civics with CVTs lack LSDs. They neve developed one for that transmission, the Si with that LSD has always been for Honda’s manual transmissions. I think a CVT or a 10-Speed AT could have a mechanical LSD if designed to do so, either way an AT can definitely do a break vectoring one.

 

[pomegranate]

You are right, I don’t have experience with Honda’s more modern CVTs. And in retrospect I do think I would have been happier with the Interga’s CVT save for the lack of a LSD. And that LSD is hugely important. I’ll just leapfrog to the TLX Type-S with SH-AWD.

Thoughts on a Lexus? Not sure why they're not talked as much compared to the A3 and other competitors.

 

[RB2490]

Thoughts on a Lexus? Not sure why they're not talked as much compared to the A3 and other competitors.

Price. I went to talk numbers on one maybe 7 months before I got the teggy. Awd started at 43k. To get heated seats, sound system and sunroof I was damn near 47k and at that point it wasn't worth it. Interior is super nice in that car but drive was so-so. I can see myself getting bored with that car if It was 42k for everything I would have taken it home though

 

[Xhilr8n!]

I hear you NeoD. But at 66 I did enjoy having a winding up and down backroad with no traffic yesterday morning in our Si. It was good fun to enjoy some shifting that related to turn entries and all that. I would really miss doing this sometimes.

But yes things have changed since twenty years ago. That chance early on a Saturday morning to have some open road used to be the daily norm. Now I follow people from Florida who are intimidated by curves and/or hills. No chance for glory.

And I changed too. Over that time I gained the means for some truly fast cars, and had a fair bit of track experience. Still though, that teenager in me learning to shift on slow cars on mountain roads needs a smile. Our Gen 9 fills the bill for now.

 

[Linas19]

Have you driven the CVT? Your concerns are exactly why I went the CVT route. Short gearing, low redline, and high clutch engagement aren’t fun for older folks like us. You mention that it needs a non CVT AT, but if you’ve never driven it, I don’t think you can fairly make that statement. The CVT is quite refined. Sounds good, shifts well, has VERY “manual” characteristics, and easily gives me 30+ mpgs.

I have driven CVTs for the last 12 years! They were from Subaru so not the worst in the market. It was fine in low rpms but the high rpm drone and the rubber band effect was tiresome. I was ready to move as soon as the 6 MT Integra was announced!

 

[Integra23]

I hear you NeoD. But at 66 I did enjoy having a winding up and down backroad with no traffic yesterday morning in our Si. It was good fun to enjoy some shifting that related to turn entries and all that. I would really miss doing this sometimes.

But yes things have changed since twenty years ago. That chance early on a Saturday morning to have some open road used to be the daily norm. Now I follow people from Florida who are intimidated by curves and/or hills. No chance for glory.

And I changed too. Over that time I gained the means for some truly fast cars, and had a fair bit of track experience. Still though, that teenager in me learning to shift on slow cars on mountain roads needs a smile. Our Gen 9 fills the bill for now.

Yeah I really hate when I hit a back road and get stuck behind someone going 5 or 10 under and braking at each turn.

 

[Xhilr8n!]

Yeah I really hate when I hit a back road and get stuck behind someone going 5 or 10 under and braking at each turn.

Right, I’m not really looking to drive all that fast, but just taking somewhat technical curves at the speed limitish, carrying momentum and catching the shift, a heel toe or two going into a turn. Driver involvement, feeling vibrations of the drivetrain in my hands and feet.

Went home by Interstate under severe reconstruction, constant lane shifts in lotsa traffic moving 80+mph like a race. Hoping other drivers can navigate the lane changes. Real life today. But where our Si finds its limits. Ya need more car to do this sort of speed in multilanes where good power rules. Or a track.

 

[BKK Jack]

...In a turn...especially in a spirited turn, as the turning forces put a bit more weight on the inside wheel, and thus the inside wheel needs to spin faster than the outside wheel for the drive forces to be equal on both sides...

You are exactly 180 out on this. In a corner, the outside wheel needs to spin faster than the inside one, because it is going around the arc of a circle that has a larger radius than the wheel on the inside by the distance of the track of the car. Also, the inside wheel is unweighted relative to the outside wheel, because in corners cars lean the wrong way. A differential allows for the wheels to spin at different rates of speed without damaging anything or dragging/pushing the wheels. Unfortunately, with an open differential, as soon as one wheel breaks traction - the inside one while cornering, because it is has less weight on it than the outside wheel - it steals power from the outside wheel. LSD's counter this through different forms of wizardry to send the power to the wheel that actually has grip allowing any vehicle with an LSD to power through corners better than a similar one with an open differential.

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