Value of the Integra Type S

[optronix]

Sorry. I had to. I was well aware of the forthcoming response.

I’ll save my next 718 outburst for Rennlist.

And, yes, I fit the target demographic. However, if that demographic excludes me from cross shopping alternative brands looking for the best value, then no, I’m not the target demographic.

Mike

No way, everyone absolutely should cross-shop anything and everything that's available. I'm actually still measuring out in my head whether I truly want to keep my 718 around- I don't have a daily commute, I only have so much garage space, can only drive one at a time, and like I said I may feel like "the rich guy" here but believe me when I say I make a good living but am most certainly NOT rich- so technically I guess you could say I'm cross-shopping the ITS with a 718 4.0...

There's about 99% chance I'll keep the 718 but the thought has crossed my mind, and will likely continue to do so until I'm ready to make a move probably late summer-fall... when the weather is starting to get shitty again and a convertible makes less sense... anyway.

A lot of it gets back to the "fun factor". I had reasons when I bought the car to get an automatic- pretty much the main reason was the acknowledgement that I'd be getting another car with a manual in due time. That time has come... and there really isn't another option out there that checks all the boxes the CTR/ITS does.

I need a car I can take to the track. I need a car I want to take down a back road. I need 4 doors to get my giant, crazy dog in. The next closest thing as someone already said would be an M3! A car twice the cost, with half the engagement. And to me the G80 has grown on me but it's still not an attractive car- which is why I bought an RS5. I won't call it boring but it's just not an engaging car to drive. It's capable sure but it boils down to inputs. Steering, shifter feel, ability to wind it out a bit without breaking every posted speed limit under the sun, etc.

Fun.

I owned the RS5 for 6 months over last winter, but once spring hit I was DYING for a true sports car! (Traded it on a 718 BGTS 2.5L while I waited for my current 4.0 to be built)... after the RS5, which is sort of a pinnacle of German sports sedans, at least arguably so- I determined I just won't go down that road again. Nothing but sterile 0-60 times.

After having owned so many of them, no German car that isn't a Porsche is consistently exciting for me to drive, and Porsche doesn't make a 4 door with a manual. If they did it would be just like the CTR/ITS!!! I think a YouTuber has already said those words... So none of these German alternatives would really fit the bill for me though... so in that sense yes, $52k is a friggin steal.

And I like the idea of the GR Corolla but I don't care what anyone says, a 3 cylinder is a dealbreaker for me. Golf R is too much like the S3 I already had and the shifter doesn't do it for me. If Subaru would have made an all-new STI (which is actually another car I had...), it would also be on the short list.

There really just isn't much to compare it to, the ITS's only competition is the CTR. And as I've said a million times, we all know what people are paying for them.

Sponsored

 

[burburbur]

I don't think having type r seats as a daily would be comfortable unless you are a slim individual.

Matt Farah is my go to on how comfortable seats will be on a huskier person and he complimented the seat comfort. Doesn't mean it would be great for long drives, but if someone as big as him is comfortable I think most people would be just fine.

 

[Rdrcr]

No way, everyone absolutely should cross-shop anything and everything that's available. I'm actually still measuring out in my head whether I truly want to keep my 718 around- I don't have a daily commute, I only have so much garage space, can only drive one at a time, and like I said I may feel like "the rich guy" here but believe me when I say I make a good living but am most certainly NOT rich- so technically I guess you could say I'm cross-shopping the ITS with a 718 4.0...

There's about 99% chance I'll keep the 718 but the thought has crossed my mind, and will likely continue to do so until I'm ready to make a move probably late summer-fall... when the weather is starting to get shitty again and a convertible makes less sense... anyway.

A lot of it gets back to the "fun factor". I had reasons when I bought the car to get an automatic- pretty much the main reason was the acknowledgement that I'd be getting another car with a manual in due time. That time has come... and there really isn't another option out there that checks all the boxes the CTR/ITS does.

I need a car I can take to the track. I need a car I want to take down a back road. I need 4 doors to get my giant, crazy dog in. The next closest thing as someone already said would be an M3! A car twice the cost, with half the engagement. And to me the G80 has grown on me but it's still not an attractive car- which is why I bought an RS5. I won't call it boring but it's just not an engaging car to drive. It's capable sure but it boils down to inputs. Steering, shifter feel, ability to wind it out a bit without breaking every posted speed limit under the sun, etc.

Fun.

I owned the RS5 for 6 months over last winter, but once spring hit I was DYING for a true sports car! (Traded it on a 718 BGTS 2.5L while I waited for my current 4.0 to be built)... after the RS5, which is sort of a pinnacle of German sports sedans, at least arguably so- I determined I just won't go down that road again. Nothing but sterile 0-60 times.

After having owned so many of them, no German car that isn't a Porsche is consistently exciting for me to drive, and Porsche doesn't make a 4 door with a manual. If they did it would be just like the CTR/ITS!!! I think a YouTuber has already said those words... So none of these German alternatives would really fit the bill for me though... so in that sense yes, $52k is a friggin steal.

And I like the idea of the GR Corolla but I don't care what anyone says, a 3 cylinder is a dealbreaker for me. Golf R is too much like the S3 I already had and the shifter doesn't do it for me. If Subaru would have made an all-new STI (which is actually another car I had...), it would also be on the short list.

There really just isn't much to compare it to, the ITS's only competition is the CTR. And as I've said a million times, we all know what people are paying for them.

Agreed.

Are you opposed to the CT4-V Blackwing or CT5-V Blackwing? Just curious.
Although, I did call my Cadillac dealer today and they said due to constraints, they're not even sure I'd be able to get a 'manual' for the 2024 MY and...there's no guarantee they'll be making those models in 2025? Crazy.

I've owned my fair share of VW and Audi vehicles. I don't plan on purchasing from either brand any time soon....as much as I like them. All of them spent way too much time in the shop and I was stuck driving loaners. That's no fun when you want to get to the track. As far as German brands go, I've had great experiences with Mercedes and Porsche. I had a 2002 BMW M Coupe on order, years and years ago but, sadly, I cancelled the order to buy a home and never took delivery of that car. That's the closest I've got to BMW.

I don't like the new interior of the Subaru's but, if the STi was available....that would probably be my choice too. I had a 2005 WRX STi. I put 10K miles ON THE TRACK in that vehicle. It loved every second of it. Great, Great car. I also really enjoyed the Evo 9 MR. It would be tough if those caliber vehicles were available new today.

For this purchase, I'm considering the;
Integra Type S
Integra A-Spec Tech 6MT
GR Corolla 'Circuit Edition' (I have one on order now)...I don't like the 3 cyl either...nor the crappy interior...
CT4-V Blackwing

I'm still thinking the Type-S is the way to go.

Mike

 

[burburbur]

Agreed.

Are you opposed to the CT4-V Blackwing or CT5-V Blackwing? Just curious.
Although, I did call my Cadillac dealer today and they said due to constraints, they're not even sure I'd be able to get a 'manual' for the 2024 MY and...there's no guarantee they'll be making those models in 2025? Crazy.

Definitely go look at the CT4 and CT5 if you're considering the BW options. The 4's backseat is so small that its basically a 2+2 with 4 doors. Smallest backseat in a 4 door car I've ever seen. The 5 is much roomier in back but the headroom in back is still horrible. Not good for anyone tall or long-torsoed.

As far as the BW aspect, good luck. The thing that's always held Cadillac back from being on the same level as the Germans or Lexus is their atrocious dealership network. Its full of guys who used to sell 20k Malibus all day long. They know nothing about the cars, treat you like shit, and will try every scumbag tactic imaginable to get more $ from you. And their service centers (which you'll visit more than you'd like with any modern GM product) are terrible. I tried to buy a CT-4 BW and CT-5 BW over the last 12 months and had over a half a dozen dealers straight up lie to me about pricing, availability, places in line, etc.

GM is lagging all the other major OEMs at getting supply normalized after the pandemic shortages so BW production is way lower than expected. If you're just getting around to placing an order now there's a good chance it'll never be built. Wait times for CT4 BW are being quoted at a year and longer than that for CT5 BW. I suspect they'll keep making the CT4/CT5 for 2025 because their EV supply chains are in even worse shape than their ICE cars so they still have to have SOMETHING to sell to customers, but with the way they are raising prices the 2025 CT5 BW is almost certainly going to start over 100k and be closer to 120 with desirable options and TTL, which to me is just ludicrous.

 

[Rdrcr]

Definitely go look at the CT4 and CT5 if you're considering the BW options. The 4's backseat is so small that its basically a 2+2 with 4 doors. Smallest backseat in a 4 door car I've ever seen. The 5 is much roomier in back but the headroom in back is still horrible. Not good for anyone tall or long-torsoed.

As far as the BW aspect, good luck. The thing that's always held Cadillac back from being on the same level as the Germans or Lexus is their atrocious dealership network. Its full of guys who used to sell 20k Malibus all day long. They know nothing about the cars, treat you like shit, and will try every scumbag tactic imaginable to get more $ from you. And their service centers (which you'll visit more than you'd like with any modern GM product) are terrible. I tried to buy a CT-4 BW and CT-5 BW over the last 12 months and had over a half a dozen dealers straight up lie to me about pricing, availability, places in line, etc.

GM is lagging all the other major OEMs at getting supply normalized after the pandemic shortages so BW production is way lower than expected. If you're just getting around to placing an order now there's a good chance it'll never be built. Wait times for CT4 BW are being quoted at a year and longer than that for CT5 BW. I suspect they'll keep making the CT4/CT5 for 2025 because their EV supply chains are in even worse shape than their ICE cars so they still have to have SOMETHING to sell to customers, but with the way they are raising prices the 2025 CT5 BW is almost certainly going to start over 100k and be closer to 120 with desirable options and TTL, which to me is just ludicrous.

Nailed it!
Totally agree.

The car is so good, however, I was willing to accept the horrible dealership support and owner experience. But, considering they can’t guarantee an allocation, I can’t place an order. Ironically, they offered me the CT4-V Blackwing on their showroom floor for $2K off MSRP. But, it’s an automatic. I won’t buy an automatic.

Mike

 

[burburbur]

Nailed it!
Totally agree.

The car is so good, however, I was willing to accept the horrible dealership support and owner experience. But, considering they can’t guarantee an allocation, I can’t place an order. Ironically, they offered me the CT4-V Blackwing on their showroom floor for $2K off MSRP. But, it’s an automatic. I won’t buy an automatic.

Mike

Absolutely stay far far away from that 10 speed. Not only are the downshifts horribly slow (and upshifts are jerky and slower than first rate autos like the ZF8), but its incredibly unreliable. Ford has a half dozen class action lawsuits against it for their version of this transmission. GM's seems to be more reliable, but not by much. I almost bought a base CT5-V a few months back to use as a commuter while waiting on a hopeful BW but reading about the horror stories of the Ford/GM 10 speed was enough to scare me off.

 

[optronix]

Agreed.

Are you opposed to the CT4-V Blackwing or CT5-V Blackwing? Just curious.
Although, I did call my Cadillac dealer today and they said due to constraints, they're not even sure I'd be able to get a 'manual' for the 2024 MY and...there's no guarantee they'll be making those models in 2025? Crazy.

I've owned my fair share of VW and Audi vehicles. I don't plan on purchasing from either brand any time soon....as much as I like them. All of them spent way too much time in the shop and I was stuck driving loaners. That's no fun when you want to get to the track. As far as German brands go, I've had great experiences with Mercedes and Porsche. I had a 2002 BMW M Coupe on order, years and years ago but, sadly, I cancelled the order to buy a home and never took delivery of that car. That's the closest I've got to BMW.

I don't like the new interior of the Subaru's but, if the STi was available....that would probably be my choice too. I had a 2005 WRX STi. I put 10K miles ON THE TRACK in that vehicle. It loved every second of it. Great, Great car. I also really enjoyed the Evo 9 MR. It would be tough if those caliber vehicles were available new today.

For this purchase, I'm considering the;
Integra Type S
Integra A-Spec Tech 6MT
GR Corolla 'Circuit Edition' (I have one on order now)...I don't like the 3 cyl either...nor the crappy interior...
CT4-V Blackwing

I'm still thinking the Type-S is the way to go.

Mike

I like the Blackwings, but something about GM has consistently kept me away from owning one- at least since the '68 Chevelle I had when I was 22. I came pretty close to buying a ZL1 back in 2010 but ultimately couldn't bring myself to it. Bought the 335i instead...

Also I think I'd be limited to the CT5, and I just don't see the value there. CT4 is less interesting to me and I think I'd prefer the ITS over it money-no-object. I think I'd rather have an M3 over a CT5, and as I mentioned earlier I don't see the value there either.

If the M2 had 4 doors and didn't look quite as bad that would probably be a worthy contender. I actually sort of like the G87 but reviews are so mixed on it I think it would probably just be another addition to my ever-growing list of previously owned cars sooner rather than later...

I'm really hoping the utility and the fun-to-drive factor of this ITS will get me to keep it for longer than my typical timeframe. Which because of Covid and the ridiculous market letting me get away with it, has only gotten worse the past few years... but I'm holding off hope this ITS could end up an actual "forever car". We shall see. Reviews aren't even out yet, but I still think the CTR could hold that position but I do have my limits when it comes to ADM, out of sheer principal... and at least right now I can't find one that isn't at least $10k marked up. I honestly don't know if the Acura will be any better with the ADM scenario- if this forum is anything to go off of I imagine it will be- but... we'll see.

Absolutely stay far far away from that 10 speed. Not only are the downshifts horribly slow (and upshifts are jerky and slower than first rate autos like the ZF8), but its incredibly unreliable. Ford has a half dozen class action lawsuits against it for their version of this transmission. GM's seems to be more reliable, but not by much. I almost bought a base CT5-V a few months back to use as a commuter while waiting on a hopeful BW but reading about the horror stories of the Ford/GM 10 speed was enough to scare me off.

That may explain the uncanny scenario of finding an "enthusiast car" below MSRP...

 

[burburbur]

That may explain the uncanny scenario of finding an "enthusiast car" below MSRP...

Yeah the 10 speed on the V and V-Blackwings is a total letdown. Pretty clear GM assumed everyone who was an enthusiast would be buying the stick and the auto is set up for the old Caddy buyer who doesn't break the speed limit on their way to golf. I feel like they probably don't sell many automatics though because, at least for the CT5-V (non-BW) the exhaust on the Turbo 6 is so loud even on the quietest setting that its going to annoy the shit out of the traditional Caddy buyer.

 

[Rdrcr]

I like the Blackwings, but something about GM has consistently kept me away from owning one- at least since the '68 Chevelle I had when I was 22. I came pretty close to buying a ZL1 back in 2010 but ultimately couldn't bring myself to it. Bought the 335i instead...

Also I think I'd be limited to the CT5, and I just don't see the value there. CT4 is less interesting to me and I think I'd prefer the ITS over it money-no-object. I think I'd rather have an M3 over a CT5, and as I mentioned earlier I don't see the value there either.

If the M2 had 4 doors and didn't look quite as bad that would probably be a worthy contender. I actually sort of like the G87 but reviews are so mixed on it I think it would probably just be another addition to my ever-growing list of previously owned cars sooner rather than later...

I'm really hoping the utility and the fun-to-drive factor of this ITS will get me to keep it for longer than my typical timeframe. Which because of Covid and the ridiculous market letting me get away with it, has only gotten worse the past few years... but I'm holding off hope this ITS could end up an actual "forever car". We shall see. Reviews aren't even out yet, but I still think the CTR could hold that position but I do have my limits when it comes to ADM, out of sheer principal... and at least right now I can't find one that isn't at least $10k marked up. I honestly don't know if the Acura will be any better with the ADM scenario- if this forum is anything to go off of I imagine it will be- but... we'll see.

I think you would be impressed with the CT4/CT5-V Blackwing 6MT if you have the opportunity to spend some time behind the wheel. I much prefer it, over the M alternatives. The CT5 is too big for my liking but if the CT4 had an N/A V8 instead of the V6TT, that would be my choice, regardless of all of GM’s flaws.

You sound very very similar to me. I typically own 4 cars (just for me, not the household) at any given moment and purchase a new vehicle every 12 months (sometime sooner). I’ve promised that I’ll stop, lol. But, the trend continues. I too am seriously hoping the ITS will be the vehicle that breaks the cycle and I keep it for a long time.

I’m lucky, my dealer is strictly MSRP so it’ll just depend on when my color combination becomes available.

Mike

 

[optronix]

I think you would be impressed with the CT4/CT5-V Blackwing 6MT if you have the opportunity to spend some time behind the wheel. I much prefer it, over the M alternatives. The CT5 is too big for my liking but if the CT4 had an N/A V8 instead of the V6TT, that would be my choice, regardless of all of GM’s flaws.

You sound very very similar to me. I typically own 4 cars (just for me, not the household) at any given moment and purchase a new vehicle every 12 months (sometime sooner). I’ve promised that I’ll stop, lol. But, the trend continues. I too am seriously hoping the ITS will be the vehicle that breaks the cycle and I keep it for a long time.

I’m lucky, my dealer is strictly MSRP so it’ll just depend on when my color combination becomes available.

Mike

Yeah I think there's a handful of us on here who are looking at this car despite being "capable" of much higher price points. I'm still heavily considering consolidating to just the ITS but I'm definitely going to have to drive it first.

I think I just realized another pretty significant factor in the appeal of the ITS for me personally, is my wife's 2023 Macan GTS. I call it hers but it's obviously available to me anytime I want to use it. I think another gigantic reason most of the German sports sedans aren't interesting to me is I have the best one sitting in the garage. The Macan GTS is an absolutely astonishing feat of engineering; Porsche has made that car better as a sports sedan than an M5. It steers, turns, looks and sounds better than that car, plus the added utility of an SUV. And it also has all the luxury accoutrements one could ever hope to have (edit- unless you want Android Auto... the one single disappointment I have with this car )- especially the way mine is spec'd (18-way seats, contrast stitch full leather, panoramic moonroof, Burmester, anthracite chestnut wood trim, etc., etc...). Plus we wrapped the whole car in Xpel stealth satin PPF, it looks absolutely sinister (the pics below actually aren't even in the "low" position with the air suspension- it actually looks better in person).

If I had to give up a car, I'd give up my 718 before the Macan. It actually is a forever car... but technically not mine .

That may add just a bit more context why the ITS fits better with me than, say, an S4 or something like that.

 

[evanescent03]

I’ve never driven a macan but the GTS is def the one I’d want. The rear seat seemed pretty cramped with me at 6’3” and my boys are growing up fast. Yukon AT4 for us but that does require a sportier vehicle to fill that role. I’ve realized there are no perfect cars and it’s really hard (impossible for us) to find “one car to rule them all.” Part of the issue is my annoying track day habit … requires a track capable car AND a tow rig. my wife absolutely loves riding along with me though so her support makes me a lucky man.

that Macan is a beauty! I’m sure I’d love it if I drove it.

 

[evanescent03]

….if the CT4 had an N/A V8 instead of the V6TT, that would be my choice, regardless of all of GM’s flaws.

…..I too am seriously hoping the ITS will be the vehicle that breaks the cycle and I keep it for a long time.

…

Mike

If the CT4VBW came with the NA v8 from the C7 stingray/Camaro SS I would absolutely have one right now …. But it doesn’t … and when I think GM, I think V8. If I had a GM that had a softer motor than my wife’s Yukon, I’d be embarrassed, kinda kidding but drama is what I want from the GM since it comes up a bit short in fit/finish/infotainment and styling IMO. Subjective but it’s enough to tip my scale to “cool, I’m sure it drives great, but nah.” my wife also just always reminds me that caddies are for old people when I bring up the 4V or 5V. she’s let me get plenty cars so not worth the fight.

I’m pretty sure the ITS is a great fit for me and for sure would be a good long termer…. But that hasn’t saved anything in the past from getting the axe. Part of the fun is experiencing different cars because I can see past many flaws if there is something I like about a car (which is why I loved the Camaro SS 1LEs I had…. Many flaws but so fun and incredible driving feel/drama).

 

[Rdrcr]

Yeah I think there's a handful of us on here who are looking at this car despite being "capable" of much higher price points. I'm still heavily considering consolidating to just the ITS but I'm definitely going to have to drive it first.

I think I just realized another pretty significant factor in the appeal of the ITS for me personally, is my wife's 2023 Macan GTS. I call it hers but it's obviously available to me anytime I want to use it. I think another gigantic reason most of the German sports sedans aren't interesting to me is I have the best one sitting in the garage. The Macan GTS is an absolutely astonishing feat of engineering; Porsche has made that car better as a sports sedan than an M5. It steers, turns, looks and sounds better than that car, plus the added utility of an SUV. And it also has all the luxury accoutrements one could ever hope to have (edit- unless you want Android Auto... the one single disappointment I have with this car )- especially the way mine is spec'd (18-way seats, contrast stitch full leather, panoramic moonroof, Burmester, anthracite chestnut wood trim, etc., etc...). Plus we wrapped the whole car in Xpel stealth satin PPF, it looks absolutely sinister (the pics below actually aren't even in the "low" position with the air suspension- it actually looks better in person).

If I had to give up a car, I'd give up my 718 before the Macan. It actually is a forever car... but technically not mine .

That may add just a bit more context why the ITS fits better with me than, say, an S4 or something like that.

If the Macan GTS had a manual, I’d buy that in a heartbeat and I wouldn’t be shopping for a performance 4dr sedan.

Mike

 

[Rdrcr]

If the CT4VBW came with the NA v8 from the C7 stingray/Camaro SS I would absolutely have one right now …. But it doesn’t … and when I think GM, I think V8. If I had a GM that had a softer motor than my wife’s Yukon, I’d be embarrassed, kinda kidding but drama is what I want from the GM since it comes up a bit short in fit/finish/infotainment and styling IMO. Subjective but it’s enough to tip my scale to “cool, I’m sure it drives great, but nah.” my wife also just always reminds me that caddies are for old people when I bring up the 4V or 5V. she’s let me get plenty cars so not worth the fight.

I’m pretty sure the ITS is a great fit for me and for sure would be a good long termer…. But that hasn’t saved anything in the past from getting the axe. Part of the fun is experiencing different cars because I can see past many flaws if there is something I like about a car (which is why I loved the Camaro SS 1LEs I had…. Many flaws but so fun and incredible driving feel/drama).

Agreed.

Yeah, if the CT4-V Blackwing had a N/A Corvette/Camaro V8, my search would be over. I don’t hate the TTV6 but, I’m certainly not in love with it. Yes, the interior quality and infotainment are a letdown. Plus, the most glaring offense I have with modern GM vehicles, living in the PNW, is the carpet wheel well liners. You can’t keep them clean up here and they literally grow moss after a couple months…

I’m certainly an automotive enthusiast. And I too thoroughly enjoy driving different vehicles which is why I switch out so often. However, the lady is getting tired of it, so I’m gonna have to slow it down and pick my vehicles more carefully, for long term ownership…I’m running out of excuses, lol.

Mike

 

[bpebler]

Guys - let’s try to remember that forum users (on ANY forum!) are SUPPOSED to be helpful to one another, not judgmental of each others decisions based on MANY unseen factors that each individual lives with. Instead, let’s look forward to positive conversations - some of us may be seeing each other at events & car shows! Let’s put the cattiness to bed, alright? There is such a thing as being direct, but polite.

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