ForeverCar’s ITS Journal

[ForeverCar]

Today, I got to drive the ITS a bit as I needed to go into the office. Although it was just a commuting type of drive, I still very much enjoyed getting to drive the ITS.

When a car gets it so "right", pretty much all drives can be quite enjoyable!

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[ForeverCar]

The Miata RF is an odd comparison for sure. The dimension that makes sense from my perspective when comparing to the ITS is that both are available new cars that offer some of the most pure and great driving engagement and enjoyment.

On the Miata RF side, there are some aspects that are unique and amazing,

• One of the smallest and lightest mainstream FR car with manual transmission.
• It gives you a sense of speed even when you are going at pretty low speed (I ended up modifying the suspension to tighten it up).
• With an aftermarket shifter, the feel is up there with S2000.

As good as the Miata RF engine is (the more powerful 2.0L), the ITS engine has more character as well as more powerful. ITS is almost magical in having a soft and smooth ride while having really great body control for handling.

I am glad the Miata exists though. However, until technology gets us there, electrification will likely add a good bit of weigh. I look forward to a ~2000 lbs electric sports car in the future at some point. That might get a carmudgeon like me to that side!

 

[JR1de57]

A few weeks ago, I got to spend ~3 days exploring the roads in the tail of the dragon area in one of my other cars. It was more amazing than I had imagined. Hope this group doesn’t mind me sharing non-ITS content. I mainly want to offer a unique perspective and sharing non-ITS content provides the context that might be helpful to you.

I would be happy to share more in the coming days on this too.

Have to shout when you are around next. I live close. (At least when im in town LOL)

 

[ForeverCar]

Have to shout when you are around next. I live close. (At least when im in town LOL)

@JR1de57 Thanks. It must be pretty awesome to be so close to so many amazing roads!

 

[Integra23]

The Miata RF is an odd comparison for sure. The dimension that makes sense from my perspective when comparing to the ITS is that both are available new cars that offer some of the most pure and great driving engagement and enjoyment.

On the Miata RF side, there are some aspects that are unique and amazing,

• One of the smallest and lightest mainstream FR car with manual transmission.
• It gives you a sense of speed even when you are going at pretty low speed (I ended up modifying the suspension to tighten it up).
• With an aftermarket shifter, the feel is up there with S2000.

As good as the Miata RF engine is (the more powerful 2.0L), the ITS engine has more character as well as more powerful. ITS is almost magical in having a soft and smooth ride while having really great body control for handling.

I am glad the Miata exists though. However, until technology gets us there, electrification will likely add a good bit of weigh. I look forward to a ~2000 lbs electric sports car in the future at some point. That might get a carmudgeon like me to that side!

One could hope for 2k ev sports cars..

 

[ForeverCar]

While it's not really a car that is likely being considered when one is shopping for the ITS, I thought some could still find my thoughts on the VB WRX useful.

For value and utility, I think the VB WRX is tough to beat. I had the base trim. A nice turbo engine, 4-door, AWD, with a manual transmission!

For me, the VB WRX rides is quite bouncy (not as bad as the Focus RS), the engine has a lot of potential but the 6,000 rpm redline stock left me wanting for sure. Shifter is okay but not spectacular like the ITS. If I really must have AWD, a set of dampers and a tune will likely address my wants with the WRX.

 

[ForeverCar]

The M2 Competition (M2C) 6-speed is an interesting car and also not likely to be crossed shopped with the ITS. I mainly look at it from the "is it a fun manual car" perspective. In the end, I didn't connect well with the M2C.

I am really glad that BMW built the M2 and is continuing to build them and offer the manual transmission option. To show support, I bought one. The compact size, the inline-6 turbo engine, and the shorter wheelbase are big attractors for me. After living with it for quite some time, I never got to the "love it" level. I believe the contributing factors are,

• Too much torque management programming unless you turn everything off.
• The engine is smooth, powerful, and has a lot of area under the curve. However, it lacks a bit on the character side for me.
• The steering wheel has gone off the deep end. Really way too thick.

 

[ForeverCar]

So, what Is this engine character that I keep mentioning? Well, I think there are many dimensions that contributes to an engine’s character.

At the heart of it, I think high redline helps a lot. However, the ITS engine does not have a particularly high redline so what gives? I think the following dimensions help make up for the lower redline,

• Relatively short final drive and close transmission gear ratios.
• Making peak power close to redline so chasing redline does not feel like you are waiting “forever” or torturing the engine.
• Sound (very subjective for sure). Different throttle opening, different load, different rpm lead to different sound making it more interesting.
• Besides sound, the vibration of the inline-4 configuration adds to the sensation and drama as well.
• Well balanced with the rest of the car yet it is a bit of a standout.

In the end, my hypothesis that an objectively “perfect” power plant is boring. Some “flaws” are needed to give an engine character. When the combinations are right like the K20C1/8 engines, it becomes a big driving enjoyment enhancing factor.

 

[Steve48]

What a great thread, thanks for sharing!

 

[ForeverCar]

Shaing a bit more on my recent visit to the tail of the dragon area. I got super lucky as I believe many aspects were close to optimally and it was likely a peak experience of a lifetime. I happen to have one of the most epic cars there for it, the weather was perfect, and we basically had all the roads to ourselves! I got to spend ~3 days driving all kinds of amazing roads.

Keeping it relatively brief, I would say,

• It absolutely belongs on the "bucket list". Please drive sensibly so it remains enjoyable for all in the future.
• As great as the tail of the dragon is, there are surrounding roads that might even be more enjoyable so explore.
• Small group is my preference. I am really glad that my friend (in the GT500) was able to join me. Experiencing it all by myself would not be nearly as enjoyable.
• To me, a lot of enjoyment from cars comes from driving and creating experiences & memories.
• While the 765LT is the car I would keep (plans have changed though), the 720S IMO is a better car to enjoy such a trip in. I think a 750S could be slightly more amazing.
• The steering on the McLaren 720S is one of the best out there. Combined with "magical" suspension, stiff chassis, and a great engine & transmission, it was close to optimal.

 

[optronix]

I love seeing these semi-random thoughts about interesting cars on this forum! I could probably go back and forth with you in perpetuity. Keep em coming!

I keep clicking on things on YouTube for the Artura, and there is a consensus that McLaren has a formula that is unmatched for a road car.

Also I agree on most parts with the K20C8, but the redline kills me. It's mostly fine on the street except in certain instances, but on the track I noticed I was routinely bouncing off the rev limiter. It's the ONLY thing that even remotely held back the pure joy I was experiencing that day so I do want to be clear that it isn't enough of a gripe to really matter, and we're picking nits because it is a wonderful engine- worth consideration for best turbo 4 of all time maybe- and I do agree that the gearing is so perfect it almost makes you ignore the relatively low redline... but when comparing great engines I feel like that's its biggest limiting factor.

I haven't driven an M2C at length, but I kind of disagree that it isn't frequently cross-shopped with the ITS. Similar price, and as you say, both squarely in the "fun, manual enthusiast cars" category- and both targets of track enthusiasts that need a car they can also drive every day. I really wanted to love the M2 CS, and I still can't take my eyes off it when I see one. Probably the best-looking car BMW has ever made... but it just reminded me too much of my M4 in a not great way when I drove one. I agree the steering wheel is a huge turn off- something you touch constantly shouldn't be such a distraction! And the one I drove had PS4S on a relatively cold day and I did not enjoy how the dynamics felt. Probably an echo of the sentiment shared above about the weird torque management things happening- the car just felt "disconnected" and I didn't drive it hard AT ALL on my very brief test drive.

But I hold out hope that I just haven't been able to give it a chance, that the one I drove was a terrible example- I did after all get to experience the OG M2 when it was first released at the BMW Performance Center and quickly realized it was better to drive than my M4. If I were to choose a car that was primarily dedicated as a track car, the M2 is still high on that list... and the engine is part of that. It is interesting to hear you say you didn't think the engine had much character- not the first time that criticism has been levied at the S55, but relative to the K20C8 I think they're at least even- with the S55 having the added bonus of being able to reach stratospheric horsepower figures in the blink of an eye via the aftermarket. Neither one sounds very good but somehow the one I drove in the CS sounded better than the F82 M4 I had- but the S55's astounding thrust at virtually any rpm coupled with its high-enough redline actually puts it above the K20 in my eyes.

But all that said, I haven't had any recent seat time in a car with the S55 on track to tell if it makes that much of a difference; my only times on track with it coming circa 2016 when they were just released- but it was a substantial amount of time between my personal car at Summit Point and the BMW Performance Center. I recall not having any issues at all with the M4 from the engine, and that it was very easy to drive fast (also partly due to the DCT)... but also my experience in my personal car was cut short because the OEM brakes started chattering uncontrollably and I was as green as possible with it only being my 3rd time on a race track, and in a brand new $80k car.

In any case- should be obvious to see that I hold the M2 in very high regard... and if I didn't need four doors I would very likely have ended up with an F87 M2C before even giving the ITS a chance. But overall I still think the ITS wins based on utility and quality of inputs. To me, the engines are equally as engaging, maybe the slight edge going to the BMW.

 

[Fanatic]

Sadly, the M2's final assembly doesn't take place in Germany (or anywhere near) from the recent time I checked and looked into one. Just how things are becoming nowadays, I suppose.

@ForeverCar - nice looking ITS. Glad you're excited and enjoying.

 

[ForeverCar]

@optronix I enjoy reading your perspectives and I see disagreement as a good thing. Of course, I appreciate the respectful disagreements particularly. I have not had experienced the M2CS yet and am expecting that I would love it. It is interesting to hear that you do not even though you wanted to.

I disagree with Chris Harris’ recent take on the new M2 that weight does not matter if you do not feel it as I think you do feel it regardless how well the engineers mask it. To me, it is a hypothetical point that is correct but does not matter. I get it though because I journalist has the embrace the current cars or become irrelevant quickly. Assuming Chris Harris will still be reviewing cars when lightweight electric sports cars come out, I think it is highly likely that he will praise them.

One thing that contributes to me wanting the K20C1/8 to have a high redline is probably how eager and nice it builds revs. It is as if the engine is saying “I have got plenty more”. Fantasizing about a hypothetical build, I would love a K20C1/8 that revs to 8000+ rpm. To do it properly would likely involv valvetrain, cams, cylinder head work, likely a standalone like Motec, fuel system work, turbo, cooling, and maybe even bottom end work. Cruciall, I think a short final drive would be a much to go with the higher redline.

My personal perspective on cars is very much influenced by a spider chart that I visualize. Since I get to fill various needs/wants with potentially different cars and curating the cars to fit into a set, the shape I look for in a particularly car might or might not resonate with a different person.

@optronix Like a Ferrari “itch”, I think yours might be a McLaren “itch”. As a lifelong car enthusiast, I think scratching them if you can is a bucket list item. Although I grew up thinking I will have a Lamborghini one day, I ended up not wanting one when I was able to and scratched (and am scratching) evolved itches if that makes sense.

 

[optronix]

It totally makes sense, and I very much needed to "scratch the itch" with a 911. I had a perfectly great 981 Boxster GTS 6-speed that I could have and arguably should have kept forever, but having wanted a 911 since literally childhood I just had to do it. I'm glad I did, and looking back on it now it was good enough that I should have definitely kept it. It wasn't a particularly "special" 911- just a 991.2 C2S- but it was perfectly spec'd for my tastes (Carmine Red, 7MT, full leather, rear axle steer, sport package...), and I don't think it will be easy to find one like it again, what with the condition, spec, mileage, and deal I got on it. We'll see... because I now view that car as "the one that got away"... and it wouldn't have gotten away if I didn't get out over my skis with trying to replace it with a far more expensive and unnecessary 992, and other idiotic ideas powered by the ridiculous car market that had me swapping cars every 6 months until it all caught up to me.

All this to say is that I don't think I'm going to be chasing "itches" anymore. Not unless something dramatic changes with my financial status. I've lost an embarrassing 5 figure sum the last year or so coupled with a change in net cash output- and while I make a nice living I am very, very far from rich- so I consider my lesson learned...

The McLaren is super interesting to me but I think you actually helped walk me off that cliff. Again- barring unforeseen windfall scenarios- I just don't have the wherewithal to deal with losing a crapload of money again on my silly car habits. Especially when this ITS just... fits me so well with where I'm at right now.

My adult kids will eventually move out and have their own financial stability and at that point I'll re-evaluate. But I feel like I need something that is actually usable that I won't be overthinking about costs all the time... 997.2, 981 GT4, M2C, Supra- all examples for what would become my "extra" car. The ITS is going nowhere.

Sadly, the M2's final assembly doesn't take place in Germany (or anywhere near) from the recent time I checked and looked into one. Just how things are becoming nowadays, I suppose.

@ForeverCar - nice looking ITS. Glad you're excited and enjoying.

The G87 that is certainly the case- Mexico, to be exact. I could be wrong but I was pretty certain the F87 (previous gen) M2 was assembled in Germany.

I don't think the place of final assembly is as much as a turn off to me; it's still engineered and manufactured to BMW's specifications and as far as I'm aware the Mexico plant has yet to be proven to put out inferior products. With the G87 it's more about the fact it doesn't speak to me like the F87 did, even if it is objectively "better". It doesn't look as good, and from what I understand it drives more "clinical", which sounds to me more like the new G8x M3/M4, which I'm not interested in either.

Maybe things will change eventually but I'm not counting on it. I think the BMW M ship has sailed for me with these G-chassis cars. I was never into the M5 and that's effectively what these new M cars have become.

 

[ForeverCar]

Thanks to this forum, I realized 80 ft-lbs is not the correct lug nut torque value to use and I re-torque them to 94 ft-lbs. I did think 80 ft-lbs seems low but that was the number I saw in the owner’s manual. I need to get a service manual for the car to prevent future mistakes!

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