My Integra Type S First Drive Review

[Lflouie]

New posting.

Sponsored

 

[optronix]

I think it also depends what experience you're looking for.

I test drove a manual 981 GTS ('15, 17k miles) before I decided to go with the ITS. I was so excited to (finally) buy a mid-engine, RWD, NA, Porsche. The gearing was a killer for me... unless you wanted to hang around in 1st, you couldn't regularly wind the motor out without touching 75 mph. Depending on your use-case or driving style, this could be a plus or a drawback; on track, I imagine it's often a boon for lap times, and for someone who wants to cruise around while sitting in gear, maybe pushing / coasting, it might be preferable to shorter gearing. For me, it meant reduced opportunities to wind it out, shift, rev match, etc. on B roads.

I also found the steering to be pretty numb, the clutch pedal to lack feedback, and the shifter felt rubbery and loose. I had been warned the EPS in the 981 left a lot to be desired, but I wasn't expecting the poor clutch / shifter feel (this could have been a result of how the prior owner treated the car, but it was otherwise in excellent shape, so I wouldn't have guessed that was a factor).

I came away with the realization that platform / concept aside, it's the implementation that ultimately matters (funnily enough, this is an important principle in other hobbies / work that I have). I settled on a FWD 4 cylinder; I've driven the ITS every day since I picked it up, and every time, I explicitly recall driving the 981, and I am glad I made the choice I did.

(This is not to say the 981 CS is a bad car. It obviously had a very high performance ceiling, but it didn't offer the experience I was looking for in terms of engagement / feedback, at least not when driven in a manner applicable to my use-case. I imagine if you're taking it to the track where you can regularly push it close to / beyond its limits, the chassis probably offers a lot more communication; on the road, driving "reasonably fast", it didn't.)

Takeaway: Don't obsess over specs on paper. Find the car that offers the driving experience you find enjoyable.

I couldn't disagree more. The steering in the 981 is a significant step back from the 982, but "numb" is not the word I'd use unless you're comparing it to a Lotus... but the shifter/clutch?

I guess you could argue if Honda does it better, but I'm not the only one who will claim the 6 speed in the mid-engine Porsche cars is widely considered one of the best in the business. Again, 982 would be slightly better... and I guess you can't completely rule out that the car you drove was a clapped out piece of trash, but you said it had 17k miles... I just don't get it.

I owned a 981 GTS for over 2 years and the only reason I moved on from it was to scratch a 911 itch I'd had literally since the first time I watched the "Parents Just Don't Understand" video by Fresh Prince and DJ Jazzy Jeff when I was like 8 years old. I can't reconcile with anyone saying it had a "rubbery shifter" or "numb steering"... and really the gearing problem wasn't NEARLY as pronounced in the 981 because the 3.4 in those cars is virtually gutless until you get to 6000 rpm.

Are you sure you weren't just looking for excuses to not spend $70k+ on an 8 year old Porsche? I get it if that's the case but let's just call a spade a spade.

Yeah, I'm being a little aggressive with a vehement response, but IMO it's warranted. I think it's nonsense, sorry.

 

[6-Speedio]

I think it also depends what experience you're looking for.

I test drove a manual 981 GTS ('15, 17k miles) before I decided to go with the ITS. I was so excited to (finally) buy a mid-engine, RWD, NA, Porsche. The gearing was a killer for me... unless you wanted to hang around in 1st, you couldn't regularly wind the motor out without touching 75 mph. Depending on your use-case or driving style, this could be a plus or a drawback; on track, I imagine it's often a boon for lap times, and for someone who wants to cruise around while sitting in gear, maybe pushing / coasting, it might be preferable to shorter gearing. For me, it meant reduced opportunities to wind it out, shift, rev match, etc. on B roads.

I also found the steering to be pretty numb, the clutch pedal to lack feedback, and the shifter felt rubbery and loose. I had been warned the EPS in the 981 left a lot to be desired, but I wasn't expecting the poor clutch / shifter feel (this could have been a result of how the prior owner treated the car, but it was otherwise in excellent shape, so I wouldn't have guessed that was a factor).

I came away with the realization that platform / concept aside, it's the implementation that ultimately matters (funnily enough, this is an important principle in other hobbies / work that I have). I settled on a FWD 4 cylinder; I've driven the ITS every day since I picked it up, and every time, I explicitly recall driving the 981, and I am glad I made the choice I did.

(This is not to say the 981 CS is a bad car. It obviously had a very high performance ceiling, but it didn't offer the experience I was looking for in terms of engagement / feedback, at least not when driven in a manner applicable to my use-case. I imagine if you're taking it to the track where you can regularly push it close to / beyond its limits, the chassis probably offers a lot more communication; on the road, driving "reasonably fast", it didn't.)

Takeaway: Don't obsess over specs on paper. Find the car that offers the driving experience you find enjoyable.

I’ve long been debating picking up a 400+ hp toy car and came to the realization that I prefer to drive a slow car fast, as opposed to driving a fast car slow… while still going the same speed in both cases. While I can stomach getting the occasional big speeding ticket, it’s the demerit points that quickly put me in line, as I need to keep my license. I’ve come to realize there’s so much more enjoyment pushing a slower car like the s2000. You get to ring out the engine and you actually get to enjoy the acceleration (or lack thereof).

On paper, big power sounds great. But in reality it is always paired with tall gearing to effectively put that power down. And taking, say, 5.0 seconds to go 0-60 is more enjoyable to me than doing the same in 3.8 seconds, because it extends that period of flogging. You get to 60 so quickly and feel like you’re barely even opening the car up and just want to keep going. It feels like getting blue balled, knowing you have to get off the gas pedal.

This is of course for cars that are largely street driven, more than anything else. The rules change for me a bit when looking at going to the track and although I do go every year 2-3 times, it’s something I don’t have the ability to do more often due to schedule constraints. In any case, I’ve come to realize that 300hp is the sweet spot for me for a predominantly street driven car and the further I get away from it, the less happy I am. I myself was also considering a Cayman S but was entirely turned off by reading about the high gearing. A damn shame.

 

[ABPDE5]

I couldn't disagree more. The steering in the 981 is a significant step back from the 982, but "numb" is not the word I'd use unless you're comparing it to a Lotus... but the shifter/clutch?

I guess you could argue if Honda does it better, but I'm not the only one who will claim the 6 speed in the mid-engine Porsche cars is widely considered one of the best in the business. Again, 982 would be slightly better... and I guess you can't completely rule out that the car you drove was a clapped out piece of trash, but you said it had 17k miles... I just don't get it.

I owned a 981 GTS for over 2 years and the only reason I moved on from it was to scratch a 911 itch I'd had literally since the first time I watched the "Parents Just Don't Understand" video by Fresh Prince and DJ Jazzy Jeff when I was like 8 years old. I can't reconcile with anyone saying it had a "rubbery shifter" or "numb steering"... and really the gearing problem wasn't NEARLY as pronounced in the 981 because the 3.4 in those cars is virtually gutless until you get to 6000 rpm.

Are you sure you weren't just looking for excuses to not spend $70k+ on an 8 year old Porsche? I get it if that's the case but let's just call a spade a spade.

Yeah, I'm being a little aggressive with a vehement response, but IMO it's warranted. I think it's nonsense, sorry.

17k miles isn't a lot, and the car looked good... but that doesn't mean the prior owner knew how to drive stick and didn't murder the clutch or wasn't rough on the shifter.

And I had no problems with the motor; I actually specifically targeted the 981 over a used 718 for the NA flat 6. I wanted to ring it out and keep it up towards redline. That's what bothered me about the tall gearing. Staying in that upper power band in 2nd means you're exceeding 60 mph. For the roads I regularly drive on and in the manner I wanted to do so, that means you're either shifting early or you're not shifting as often as I wanted to. I would have preferred shorter gearing. On different roads, or when driven differently, the taller gearing might be favorable. Like I said, I'm sure it's preferable on track.

I'll reiterate: I'm not saying the 981 is a bad car... it just didn't give me the input / feedback I was looking for, and that, combined with the tall gearing, meant I was unenthused with the driving experience.

If your use-case is different than mine and your preferred shifter / clutch feel is, too, I'm sure it's a fantastic car. I had no qualms about how it handled, etc.; I love NA motors, and I think it looks fantastic.

And no, "looking for excuses to not spend $70k+ on an 8 year old Porsche" wasn't a factor... because I was never going to spend $70k on a GTS. To each their own, but I don't think the minor tune and resonator are worth 15k (and alcantara / racetex wasn't a priority for me, either). My target was a 981 CS, manual, w. X73 and PTV. It just so happens that the GTS was the first manual 981 CS available for a test drive within reasonable driving range, and it came packaged w. X73 and PTV by default.

And just FYI: I'm actually a little disappointed with the ITS shifter... it isn't as good as some of the Honda 6 speeds I've had in the past. The gate feel is good, but the throw is long, imo; I'll be looking to shorten it (probably with a deeply countersunk knob, or rocker arm).

 

[6-Speedio]

I couldn't disagree more. The steering in the 981 is a significant step back from the 982, but "numb" is not the word I'd use unless you're comparing it to a Lotus... but the shifter/clutch?

I guess you could argue if Honda does it better, but I'm not the only one who will claim the 6 speed in the mid-engine Porsche cars is widely considered one of the best in the business. Again, 982 would be slightly better... and I guess you can't completely rule out that the car you drove was a clapped out piece of trash, but you said it had 17k miles... I just don't get it.

I owned a 981 GTS for over 2 years and the only reason I moved on from it was to scratch a 911 itch I'd had literally since the first time I watched the "Parents Just Don't Understand" video by Fresh Prince and DJ Jazzy Jeff when I was like 8 years old. I can't reconcile with anyone saying it had a "rubbery shifter" or "numb steering"... and really the gearing problem wasn't NEARLY as pronounced in the 981 because the 3.4 in those cars is virtually gutless until you get to 6000 rpm.

Are you sure you weren't just looking for excuses to not spend $70k+ on an 8 year old Porsche? I get it if that's the case but let's just call a spade a spade.

Yeah, I'm being a little aggressive with a vehement response, but IMO it's warranted. I think it's nonsense, sorry.

I see no issues with your response. People tend to really analyze cars completely different from one another and ultimately both of you may have a point. I’ve entirely stayed away from Porsche except when I was flirting with the idea of picking up a Cayman S. Part of it is related to the old saying: you never want to meet your superheroes. As someone who is a whore for the manual transmission, I’m afraid to get into a Porsche and feel disappointed. Prior to picking up my CTR, I was dead set on grabbing a Golf R because of the more grown up looks. And then I drove one. And was so incredibly disappointed with the shifter and clutch that I ended the test drive after about 8 minutes and vowed to never touch another VW manual again.

Is Porsche the same? I honestly don’t know. I refuse to go by people’s reviews also, as there’s been too many cases where they scream how awesome something is and my experience just doesn’t match up. Outright speed or acceleration has never been a concern for me as there is always someone faster and I don’t overly care to compete on the road with anyone. I drive because I love to drive and I do it solely for myself. So a slower manual fits my bill because of the fun it provides to me, no matter how much faster anyone else is. And it’s well known that Honda provides some of the most engaging experiences with a stick.

I hope Porsche is the same. I at least always imagined they are. I’m too scared to actually find out though

 

[ABPDE5]

You get to 60 so quickly and feel like you’re barely even opening the car up and just want to keep going. It feels like getting blue balled, knowing you have to get off the gas pedal.

This is of course for cars that are largely street driven, more than anything else. The rules change for me a bit when looking at going to the track

I myself was also considering a Cayman S but was entirely turned off by reading about the high gearing. A damn shame.

This was exactly how I felt... I wasn't actually going to be able to drive the car the way I wanted to, and I wanted it to drive it. (I suppose it's worth mentioning that the smaller 2.7l might be down enough in power to rectify the gearing issue if you really want a Cayman and also want to flog it on the street.)

 

[Lflouie]

I buy my cars for a handling and fun, there are a myriad of cars that claim this as their key selling point. As various posters have stated what is their definition along with examples, it is basically user dependent.

One person's observation of the greatness of a particular attribute is another's mediocrity. Who is right...both of them.

The point is everyone has a different set of likes (passions) and it doesn't require other's approval to be right for them or "valid".

Stating why we like or dislike certain attributes is simply that person's opinions....nothing more nothing less. So why burn the time declaring why their opinion is incorrect or not the same as their own....it is obvious it is different.....and so be it.

I do enjoy learning about other's rationale about why they like what they like, and where incorrect, providing reasoning for their position.

As an example having owned 911 and S2000 (as well as numerous cars) I agree that these both offer the best oem shifters. But on both cars I improved ( per my liking) and replaced entire shifters or elements that further enhanced them. So in my case, yes they started as a "better" device but I wanted more....bc I like close spacing, short throw, tighter (less shifter movement) feeling mechanisms. I may be in the absolute minority....and I really don't care, bc that is what pleases me.

Having owned over 50 cars, I have developed my own set of variables that mean something to me...and which ones I will trade-off to achieve an acceptable total outcome ( bc there is always a trade-off). Learned long ago that there is no perfect car, and in particular Id don't want the same car characteristics for DD as I do for mtn carving, or for cruising....that's why Im fortunate to always have 3 different cars in the garage.

The ITS is not my number # 1 for any of these dedicated uses, but it's combination of above average capabilities in all of them, and it is a very attractive and appointed well enough to satisfy my requirements in almost all of them.

My challenge that I'm working through is that I also have VERY high expections of the paint and finish bc I grew up doing detailing, car shows, and concours. I know I hold high expections of myself in maintaining a perfect finish, which may be meaningless to others, but is a go no go for me.

As I stated earlier, everything is a compromise, so I'm coming to the point that until I lay my eyes on the specific car I want to buy, I'm unsure I'll pull the trigger. But based on the numerous reviews on the car, that is the final piece of the puzzle.

If it doesn't work, so be it bc I have 3 cars that tick the boxes already....but a fling with a new pretty face that has a host of great attributes might just be in the cards....here's hoping.

 

[ABPDE5]

I buy my cars for a handling and fun, there are a myriad of cars that claim this as their key selling point. As various posters have stated what is their definition along with examples, it is basically user dependent.

One person's observation of the greatness of a particular attribute is another's mediocrity. Who is right...both of them.

The point is everyone has a different set of likes (passions) and it doesn't require other's approval to be right for them or "valid".

Completely agree... it is often a car's unique imperfections that make it so special (to the relevant driver).

 

[optronix]

17k miles isn't a lot, and the car looked good... but that doesn't mean the prior owner knew how to drive stick and didn't murder the clutch or wasn't rough on the shifter.

And I had no problems with the motor; I actually specifically targeted the 981 over a used 718 for the NA flat 6. I wanted to ring it out and keep it up towards redline. That's what bothered me about the tall gearing. Staying in that upper power band in 2nd means you're exceeding 60 mph. For the roads I regularly drive on and in the manner I wanted to do so, that means you're either shifting early or you're not shifting as often as I wanted to. I would have preferred shorter gearing. On different roads, or when driven differently, the taller gearing might be favorable. Like I said, I'm sure it's preferable on track.

I'll reiterate: I'm not saying the 981 is a bad car... it just didn't give me the input / feedback I was looking for, and that, combined with the tall gearing, meant I was unenthused with the driving experience.

If your use-case is different than mine and your preferred shifter / clutch feel is, too, I'm sure it's a fantastic car. I had no qualms about how it handled, etc.; I love NA motors, and I think it looks fantastic.

And no, "looking for excuses to not spend $70k+ on an 8 year old Porsche" wasn't a factor... because I was never going to spend $70k on a GTS. To each their own, but I don't think the minor tune and resonator are worth 15k (and alcantara / racetex wasn't a priority for me, either). My target was a 981 CS, manual, w. X73 and PTV. It just so happens that the GTS was the first manual 981 CS available for a test drive within reasonable driving range, and it came packaged w. X73 and PTV by default.

And just FYI: I'm actually a little disappointed with the ITS shifter... it isn't as good as some of the Honda 6 speeds I've had in the past. The gate feel is good, but the throw is long, imo; I'll be looking to shorten it (probably with a deeply countersunk knob, or rocker arm).

Fair and measured response. I personally had to have the GTS because IMO the front fascia on the 981 is so dramatically better than the S. There was literally one in the entire country, in Memphis. I drove from Maryland to Memphis and back to get that car- totally worth it. I still miss it dearly.

Also FWIW, the 981 GTS did NOT come with PTV by default, in fact it was a rarely selected option on the 981 in general. I don't think X73 was either... PASM was standard on the GTS but X73 was a no-cost option 10mm lower than that, and fixed, not adaptive. The X73 was a feat of engineering though. Best compromise of sport+comfort I've ever driven, from a fixed suspension perspective.

I hope Porsche is the same. I at least always imagined they are. I’m too scared to actually find out though

Inflated expectations can kill an experience, I can't disagree. I use the Star Wars prequel movies as an example. No way those movies could keep everyone happy; and I'd argue that the more of a "fan" you are, the more disappointed you'll end up being if you let preconceptions get it the way of reality.

That said, I really do believe that people disappointed in Porsche are in the vast minority.

This was exactly how I felt... I wasn't actually going to be able to drive the car the way I wanted to, and I wanted it to drive it. (I suppose it's worth mentioning that the smaller 2.7l might be down enough in power to rectify the gearing issue if you really want a Cayman and also want to flog it on the street.)

I was about to suggest the 2.7, many people claim that's the best sounding water-cooled, non-GT engine Porsche ever built, and is probably a magnificent bargain in the sports car world right now.

Stating why we like or dislike certain attributes is simply that person's opinions....nothing more nothing less. So why burn the time declaring why their opinion is incorrect or not the same as their own....it is obvious it is different.....and so be it.

I do enjoy learning about other's rationale about why they like what they like, and where incorrect, providing reasoning for their position.

You answered your own question! If we all agreed, automotive forums would be a pretty boring place.

Also, what 911 did you have? My guess is a 997 or earlier. The 7-speeds aren't that great. The 991.1 being the worst offender; I had a 991.2 and it was way better than the 991.1 but still about a 7.5/10. My son's Civic Si was better. But my 981 was better than the Si, the 982 is even better than that, and I do think the ITS I drove is the best manual shifter I've driven.

All this to say, the fact that the ITS is even in the conversation with Porsche sports cars is why I'm so interested in the car. The fit and finish issues are concerning but this car will effectively be a "beater" for me anyway, with my 80 lb Dutch Shepherd a primary passenger so I'm not too concerned about taking it out to concours or anything like that.

That said... I'm getting really skeptical that I'll get a car in the timeline I feel is acceptable while not paying a markup. I've actually pivoted to starting to deeply consider an F80 M3, because I really enjoyed my F82 M4.

 

[ABPDE5]

Fair and measured response. I personally had to have the GTS because IMO the front fascia on the 981 is so dramatically better than the S. There was literally one in the entire country, in Memphis. I drove from Maryland to Memphis and back to get that car- totally worth it. I still miss it dearly.

Also FWIW, the 981 GTS did NOT come with PTV by default, in fact it was a rarely selected option on the 981 in general. I don't think X73 was either... PASM was standard on the GTS but X73 was a no-cost option 10mm lower than that, and fixed, not adaptive. The X73 was a feat of engineering though. Best compromise of sport+comfort I've ever driven, from a fixed suspension perspective.



Inflated expectations can kill an experience, I can't disagree. I use the Star Wars prequel movies as an example. No way those movies could keep everyone happy; and I'd argue that the more of a "fan" you are, the more disappointed you'll end up being if you let preconceptions get it the way of reality.

That said, I really do believe that people disappointed in Porsche are in the vast minority.



I was about to suggest the 2.7, many people claim that's the best sounding water-cooled, non-GT engine Porsche ever built, and is probably a magnificent bargain in the sports car world right now.



You answered your own question! If we all agreed, automotive forums would be a pretty boring place.

Also, what 911 did you have? My guess is a 997 or earlier. The 7-speeds aren't that great. The 991.1 being the worst offender; I had a 991.2 and it was way better than the 991.1 but still about a 7.5/10. My son's Civic Si was better. But my 981 was better than the Si, the 982 is even better than that, and I do think the ITS I drove is the best manual shifter I've driven.

All this to say, the fact that the ITS is even in the conversation with Porsche sports cars is why I'm so interested in the car. The fit and finish issues are concerning but this car will effectively be a "beater" for me anyway, with my 80 lb Dutch Shepherd a primary passenger so I'm not too concerned about taking it out to concours or anything like that.

That said... I'm getting really skeptical that I'll get a car in the timeline I feel is acceptable while not paying a markup. I've actually pivoted to starting to deeply consider an F80 M3, because I really enjoyed my F82 M4.

Yeah, the GTS front end looks much better... and the GT4 puts them all to shame (including the hood).
I had forgotten PASM was standard. I think most of the GTSs I looked at had been optioned with PTV; you are correct, though, finding an S with PTV was proving very difficult (hence my confusion re: misremembering and thinking it was standard on the GTS). I can't believe it was so infrequently optioned, considering the performance benefits of the LSD / torque vectoring and the cost (~2k) relative to the price of the car (new). Luckily X73 was a relatively inexpensive retrofit (and the resonator is easy enough to do yourself)... can't say the same about PTV.

Best of luck to you finding an ITS... will be interesting to see what production numbers end up looking like.

 

[optronix]

Yeah, the GTS front end looks much better... and the GT4 puts them all to shame (including the hood).
I had forgotten PASM was standard. I think most of the GTSs I looked at had been optioned with PTV; you are correct, though, finding an S with PTV was proving very difficult (hence my confusion re: misremembering and thinking it was standard on the GTS). I can't believe it was so infrequently optioned, considering the performance benefits of the LSD / torque vectoring and the cost (~2k) relative to the price of the car (new). Luckily X73 was a relatively inexpensive retrofit (and the resonator is easy enough to do yourself)... can't say the same about PTV.

Best of luck to you finding an ITS... will be interesting to see what production numbers end up looking like.

I agree, I don't know why so many 981s were not optioned with PTV. Overall it doesn't make as much of a difference as you think in the mid-engine cars; in fact I don't think anyone short of a veteran track rat or pro racing driver would notice a substantial difference. The car's balance is too neutral, you'll never catch yourself sliding it around I don't care what kind of driving you do- especially on the street. But still... the idea of an open diff on a top-tier sports car is a pretty tough pill to swallow, conceptually.

Also good luck finding a backup camera or lane change assist on a 981- they were available, but hardly anyone optioned them it seems. Crazy.

And yeah GT4s look amazing but are their own breed of impracticality. Prices on them are insane, and have been forever. There's an artificial infatuation with Porsche "GT" cars that I don't see ever going away... even though I really struggle to give the GT4 that qualification because it shares its drivetrain with the "lesser" GTS (or in the 981's case, the base 911), and still arguably has a "primitive" suspension setup to justify being put on a pedestal (the GT3 just got blessed with double wishbone two years ago with the 992, still struts for the GT4)... but I digress. This is an Acura forum after all...

 

[ABPDE5]

But still... the idea of an open diff on a top-tier sports car is a pretty tough pill to swallow, conceptually.

And yeah GT4s look amazing but are their own breed of impracticality. Prices on them are insane, and have been forever. There's an artificial infatuation with Porsche "GT" cars that I don't see ever going away... even though I really struggle to give the GT4 that qualification because it shares its drivetrain with the "lesser" GTS (or in the 981's case, the base 911), and still arguably has a "primitive" suspension setup to justify being put on a pedestal (the GT3 just got blessed with double wishbone two years ago with the 992, still struts for the GT4)... but I digress. This is an Acura forum after all...

Completely agree on both accounts. I never could understand the value a standard 981 GT4 commands.

I was a little hung up on the strut suspension, but it works well enough -- much like, based on your feedback, the lack of PTV (and back to my point about implementation > principle / concept).

Sponsored