Track suspension setup

[btrip]

Hey everyone,

I've been struggling with significant understeer on track with my Type S, especially when pushing it hard in corners. It's been affecting the driving experience and killing apex speed, and I was hoping to get some advice from the community on how to dial it out.

I am on RT660s with Phearable tune so I’m pushing close to 380HP and 400TQ to the wheels, which is exacerbating the grip issue.

Being early on in my mod journey, I’ve been running the stock alignment at the track (pins pulled), but just installed whiteline lower ball joints set to max camber (yet to track the alignment). Also went with their 22mm rear sway bar set to max stiffness. There are stiffer bars but I want the car to be as planted and neutral handling as possible. The last thing I need is to get lift of oversteer on a 100+mph turn. (See pointbypatrol’s wreck on YouTube)

Does anyone have recommendations for specific camber or toe settings that have worked well to reduce the understeer in the Type S? Gaining a lot more negative camber up front and adjusting the rear as well to balance things out should help, but I'd love to hear what setups have worked for you.

For those who've played around with the suspension, what changes have you found effective in reducing understeer? I've heard mixed things about stiffening the front sway bar, or adding a strut tower bar.

FL5 Type R Damper Module Swap???

I've thought a bit about swapping the damper module with the FL5 Type R's setup to help dial out understeer. Has anyone here done this swap? If so, How much of a difference does it make in handling and reducing understeer? I know the FL5 came with stiffer front springs (5.0kg vs 4.5) but Honda/Acura has decided to change both front spring rates to 4.7. I plan on doing the springs eventually, but not sure how much spring rate is ideal for the track.

I’m really interested in hearing what’s worked for others and any specific advice you might have. Whether it's alignment, suspension tweaks, or more substantial mods like lowering springs or coilovers. I'd love to know what you recommend to make the Type S handle better.

Thanks in advance for your help!

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[SocalDE5]

Hello. It sounds like you have a grasp for the suspension itself and set up.

I think you should put a tad more focus on your tire temps and pressures front vs. rear......maybe tire choice? Without the tire grip...suspension don't matter.

I dont know the max temps the 660 can handle but you may need to play with your hot psi levels.

The fronts can be over heated n cry no more when they are under too much load... or just too hot into a turn.

Maybe slight earlier braking to shave speed to load the tires for grip is a small driving adjustment.

Later hard braking is nice but the tire heats up quite a bit...especially on hotter surface temps.

Help keep the tire cooler and brake a tad sooner......smoother to load.... you could probably get to the apex easier and get through a turn faster.

But this is a fwd. A lot of weight up front. Get the tires to match your pace then that suspension set up fine tunes the experience.

Now back to drinking coke zero n watching the nick at night ch.

 

[btrip]

Hello. It sounds like you have a grasp for the suspension itself and set up.

I think you should put a tad more focus on your tire temps and pressures front vs. rear......maybe tire choice? Without the tire grip...suspension don't matter.

I dont know the max temps the 660 can handle but you may need to play with your hot psi levels.

The fronts can be over heated n cry no more when they are under too much load... or just too hot into a turn.

Maybe slight earlier braking to shave speed to load the tires for grip is a small driving adjustment.

Later hard braking is nice but the tire heats up quite a bit...especially on hotter surface temps.

Help keep the tire cooler and brake a tad sooner......smoother to load.... you could probably get to the apex easier and get through a turn faster.

But this is a fwd. A lot of weight up front. Get the tires to match your pace then that suspension set up fine tunes the experience.

Now back to drinking coke zero n watching the nick at night ch.

Hello. It sounds like you have a grasp for the suspension itself and set up.

I think you should put a tad more focus on your tire temps and pressures front vs. rear......maybe tire choice? Without the tire grip...suspension don't matter.

I dont know the max temps the 660 can handle but you may need to play with your hot psi levels.

The fronts can be over heated n cry no more when they are under too much load... or just too hot into a turn.

Maybe slight earlier braking to shave speed to load the tires for grip is a small driving adjustment.

Later hard braking is nice but the tire heats up quite a bit...especially on hotter surface temps.

Help keep the tire cooler and brake a tad sooner......smoother to load.... you could probably get to the apex easier and get through a turn faster.

But this is a fwd. A lot of weight up front. Get the tires to match your pace then that suspension set up fine tunes the experience.

Now back to drinking coke zero n watching the nick at night ch.

I have no way to monitor temp other than how hot it is outside and how fast the tires increase their pressure. On a stock alignment anything above 32 front psi hot reduces grip. Lower pressure helps but destroys tires. Even at 32psi hot I’m rolling on th side walls on the 660s. Even At that pressure they’re squealing like all seasons on track. I think I need springs and the FL5 ADS module

 

[SocalDE5]

I ran a session at mid-Ohio last weekend. If I start at 25 front cold and 28 rear I still over


I have no way to monitor temp other than how hot it is outside and how fast the tires increase their pressure. On a stock alignment anything above 32 front psi reduces grip. Lower pressure helps but destroys tires. Even at 32psi hot I’m rolling on th side walls on the 660s. Even At that pressure they’re squealing like all seasons on track. I think I need springs and the FL5 ADD module

My track kit (motorcye but same concept) i had a chep thermo temp "gun" from harbor freight and a motion pro tire pressure.

Right off the track at my pit I check tire temps and pressures. The only thing you would do is check temps. And I would ask others for tire advice there. Lotta old doods with good knowledge n tips

You may need to change tire brand for your track days. Embrace the exspense.

I did.... my pirelli sbk slix cost me over 400$ for 2 tires that last barely half a day for me.

Hope you sort it out so you can get more enjoyment at the track

 

[RamVA]

As said above, a cheap temp gun is your friend. You can check temps on the inner, outer, and middle (as soon as you get off track) to assess whether you have your pressure and camber correct.

With that said, it's FWD, so you have to pick your poison. Either you'll have push, or it's going to be a little tricky in high speed corners. If you want to fix your problem you need more rear bar. (If you've changed the front bar, I'd change it back to stock first, or if it's adjustable put it to full soft.) Depending on what you do it may be a bit loose, but the answer to that will be a bit more throttle.

If you look at any fast Honda or VW on track, they are set up very loose. Many will pick up a rear wheel in turns. That's the way to point them in and make them fast, and it's also the way they get wrecked. You decide how far you want to go.

I am also curious as to how much spring this car can take, though I doubt I will change mine.

Full disclosure - I have not tracked or modified my ITS.

 

[StingertimeNC]

The extra power is part of the problem as well I suspect. The car is very well engineered for the power it does have. In my limited experience, at VIR, I'm not able to come close to what a stock car is capable of doing. I need to work on my driving technique or just enjoy driving pretty fast and being safe, not trying to maximize my lap times. This car is fun but has it's limitations on track. But if you really want something aggressive on the track, rear wheel drive is the answer.

It's about money too. The car totally stock is probably 97% as capable as yours, it's the last few seconds that cost a fortune.

I would try to message Zygrene, and also get in touch with Point By Patrol. I bet they would have a lot to say on this topic.

 

[ChromaPop]

Zygrene?

 

[Fred 930]

An important piece of equipment for any serious race team is a tire pyrometer. But that assumes you have enough suspension adjustability to attempt equalizing temperatures across the tire tread face - usually measured in 3 places - center and each outside edge, of each tire (12 measurements).

The pyrometer tip is designed to slightly penetrate the tread, thus providing a more accurate internal temperature versus a simple IR gun (the tire face cools quickly).

You must have a crew member at the wall ready to take the 12 temps, be disciplined enough to stop after a few hot laps to record the temps, and hopefully at a track with a short pit entrance (to minimize cooling). The crew guy needs to move fast. Having a second crew to measure / adjust pressures speeds things up.

See: https://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1721

You may not be able to get enough negative camber with the stock suspension. But even if you can, it will quickly wear the inside tire edge if street driven. Good track cars are NOT good street cars. Many have struggled with this, but you can get a fun track car for a lot less money than you paid for your ITS (but then need a trailer, tow vehicle, and place to keep everything). And when you break or smack up the track car, you still have the ITS to get to work on Monday.

Lastly, most modifications done to a nice street car cost a lot of money, severely reduces the car's value, degrades its street driving enjoyment, and likely results in a mediocre track car .... anyway, just my opinion.

 

[davelemi]

Zygrene?

Check out his YouTube channel. He’s done some modifications for track work.

 

[optronix]

@Zygrene runs Ohlins and whiteline camber bolts, running 18 x 9.5 +45 apex vs5rs on v730s. He also reports understeer but chalks it up to reprogramming his driving style for FWD. I basically stalk his channel, but he posts fairly regularly in here so there's a decent likelihood he'll chime in himself. I'm not aware of anyone else with better experience tracking this platform.

Also he just swapped the Ohlins springs and added a few other (primarily cooling mods); I'm eagerly awaiting his updated track impressions of the mods.

 

[RamVA]

Good track cars are NOT good street cars.

I agree with this. I have ruined multiple awesome street cars turning them into awesome track cars. My current track car is street-legal and almost undriveable off track. Damn shame, it was an amazing road car when I got it.

 

[Zygrene]

Oh boy, spicy topic. I just did 2 track days recently (Laguna Seca and Thunderhill West) and have some learnings to share:

1) Understeer. After swapping from 6k/10k springs to 7k/7k (per Ohlins recommendation as I'm helping them develop the FL5/DE5 kit), and keeping alignment, tires, etc the SAME as before, the car now understeers a lot more. I was over half a second slower at Laguna (same 65-70F ambient temp as when I did a 1:40.7), and 2 seconds slower at T-hill West although most of this can be attributed to the 90F+ ambient temp which I cover in my 2nd point below. I tried higher rear tire pressures on my V730 and increasing rear damping by 4 clicks, but that didn't do much.

I have a few more things to try before moving back to the 10k rear spring, including raising rear ride height slightly, maxing out front camber from -3.1 to hopefully -4 by adjusting my Whiteline camber joints, and increasing rear damping further. If those changes don't get me the result I want, I will try adding an aftermarket rear sway bar and/or throw the 10k springs back on while leaving the 7k up front. With the old 6/10 setup, understeer was still present but I could somewhat drive around it. Now it's just plain frustrating.

For context, Ohlins used their own DE5 and tested 4 different spring rate setups (6k/10k, 6k/8k, 6k/7k, and 7k/7k) on street and track, and determined that 7k/7k felt the best in both use cases. But in hindsight, it's obvious that increasing front rate by ~17% while reducing rear rate by 30% would lead to more understeer.

2) Overheating. This one is tricky because I installed a PRL intercooler and Acuity reverse flow radiator hoses just before the 2 track days. What I didn't realize is that the PRL intercooler's design effectively blocks half of the airflow from the bottom bumper vent, and this air needs to flow through to the radiator to cool the engine. Should have done my research. Not sure how much of the overheating can be attributed to this mod, versus the high ambient (90F+) temp at Thunderhill. Within 3 hard laps my stock coolant temp readout was reaching 6 bars out of 10. I'd only seen it go up to 5 before, at Laguna when it was 65-70F. And that only happened after 4-5 laps.

I'm now debating what to do. I can put the stock intercooler back in, and/or look into an aftermarket radiator, oil cooler, etc. I have NOT been monitoring oil temps at all, but I assume it's getting pretty hot.

Alternatively I can just avoid tracking this car in the summer. Keep in mind, this is primarily my daily so I don't want to push it too far with mods.

Also, videos of both track days will be posted to my channel some time in July.

 

[ABPDE5]

Oh boy, spicy topic. I just did 2 track days recently (Laguna Seca and Thunderhill West) and have some learnings to share:

1) Understeer. After swapping from 6k/10k springs to 7k/7k (per Ohlins recommendation as I'm helping them develop the FL5/DE5 kit), and keeping alignment, tires, etc the SAME as before, the car now understeers a lot more. I was over half a second slower at Laguna (same 65-70F ambient temp as when I did a 1:40.7), and 2 seconds slower at T-hill West although most of this can be attributed to the 90F+ ambient temp which I cover in my 2nd point below. I tried higher rear tire pressures on my V730 and increasing rear damping by 4 clicks, but that didn't do much.

I have a few more things to try before moving back to the 10k rear spring, including raising rear ride height slightly, maxing out front camber from -3.1 to hopefully -4 by adjusting my Whiteline camber joints, and increasing rear damping further. If those changes don't get me the result I want, I will try adding an aftermarket rear sway bar and/or throw the 10k springs back on while leaving the 7k up front. With the old 6/10 setup, understeer was still present but I could somewhat drive around it. Now it's just plain frustrating.

For context, Ohlins used their own DE5 and tested 4 different spring rate setups (6k/10k, 6k/8k, 6k/7k, and 7k/7k) on street and track, and determined that 7k/7k felt the best in both use cases. But in hindsight, it's obvious that increasing front rate by ~17% while reducing rear rate by 30% would lead to more understeer.

2) Overheating. This one is tricky because I installed a PRL intercooler and Acuity reverse flow radiator hoses just before the 2 track days. What I didn't realize is that the PRL intercooler's design effectively blocks half of the airflow from the bottom bumper vent, and this air needs to flow through to the radiator to cool the engine. Should have done my research. Not sure how much of the overheating can be attributed to this mod, versus the high ambient (90F+) temp at Thunderhill. Within 3 hard laps my stock coolant temp readout was reaching 6 bars out of 10. I'd only seen it go up to 5 before, at Laguna when it was 65-70F. And that only happened after 4-5 laps.

I'm now debating what to do. I can put the stock intercooler back in, and/or look into an aftermarket radiator, oil cooler, etc. I have NOT been monitoring oil temps at all, but I assume it's getting pretty hot.

Alternatively I can just avoid tracking this car in the summer. Keep in mind, this is primarily my daily so I don't want to push it too far with mods.

Also, videos of both track days will be posted to my channel some time in July.

Based on feedback in the FL5 forums, ditch the PRL IC. It's a net negative.

 

[optronix]

Oh boy, spicy topic. I just did 2 track days recently (Laguna Seca and Thunderhill West) and have some learnings to share:

1) Understeer. After swapping from 6k/10k springs to 7k/7k (per Ohlins recommendation as I'm helping them develop the FL5/DE5 kit), and keeping alignment, tires, etc the SAME as before, the car now understeers a lot more. I was over half a second slower at Laguna (same 65-70F ambient temp as when I did a 1:40.7), and 2 seconds slower at T-hill West although most of this can be attributed to the 90F+ ambient temp which I cover in my 2nd point below. I tried higher rear tire pressures on my V730 and increasing rear damping by 4 clicks, but that didn't do much.

I have a few more things to try before moving back to the 10k rear spring, including raising rear ride height slightly, maxing out front camber from -3.1 to hopefully -4 by adjusting my Whiteline camber joints, and increasing rear damping further. If those changes don't get me the result I want, I will try adding an aftermarket rear sway bar and/or throw the 10k springs back on while leaving the 7k up front. With the old 6/10 setup, understeer was still present but I could somewhat drive around it. Now it's just plain frustrating.

For context, Ohlins used their own DE5 and tested 4 different spring rate setups (6k/10k, 6k/8k, 6k/7k, and 7k/7k) on street and track, and determined that 7k/7k felt the best in both use cases. But in hindsight, it's obvious that increasing front rate by ~17% while reducing rear rate by 30% would lead to more understeer.

2) Overheating. This one is tricky because I installed a PRL intercooler and Acuity reverse flow radiator hoses just before the 2 track days. What I didn't realize is that the PRL intercooler's design effectively blocks half of the airflow from the bottom bumper vent, and this air needs to flow through to the radiator to cool the engine. Should have done my research. Not sure how much of the overheating can be attributed to this mod, versus the high ambient (90F+) temp at Thunderhill. Within 3 hard laps my stock coolant temp readout was reaching 6 bars out of 10. I'd only seen it go up to 5 before, at Laguna when it was 65-70F. And that only happened after 4-5 laps.

I'm now debating what to do. I can put the stock intercooler back in, and/or look into an aftermarket radiator, oil cooler, etc. I have NOT been monitoring oil temps at all, but I assume it's getting pretty hot.

Alternatively I can just avoid tracking this car in the summer. Keep in mind, this is primarily my daily so I don't want to push it too far with mods.

Also, videos of both track days will be posted to my channel some time in July.

Awesome sneak peak at your upcoming videos (I'll still watch lol). Super helpful letting you go through the trial and error so I can just do what you end up with at the end!

I really wanted to see an amazing improvement with the Ohlins spring swap, but the science just doesn't seem to back up their hypothesis. I'm still on completely stock setup and I think the understeer is tolerable, only shows up in situations where I feel like I could have avoided it with better driving. But if there was any more, to your point- it would probably strip away all the fun this car can be in track settings, and god forbid it screws with how it drives on the street.

(I think you can get a set of the "old" FL5 Ohlins for a decent discount at times too...)

As for the intercooler, yeah this combined with several other anecdotes off the FL5 forums pretty much is all the evidence I need to attribute it directly to overheating issues. There really should be a PSA on it now, because it seems like tons of folks have that intercooler, and it literally ruins the car for the track. At least without a series of other supporting mods.

Hard pass on the PRL, still leaning toward Ohlins but maybe wait until next season while they continue to dial in the DE5 platform.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Really appreciate all the info guys. Funny how messing with cooling makes things worse. People seem to be trying to fix what’s not really broken.
In 90%+ of use cases, we probably cannot approach the limits of a bone stock car.

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