Integra type S vs Civic type R

[Lflouie]

Overseas you see a lot of cars going mild hybrid, gas engine with tiny electric alternator amd starter and a small battery. It adds like 30 lbs to the car, and slightly reduces emissions and gas consumption, and let’s automakers look like they’re being progressive.

I own a 2021 Audi A4 mild-hybrid that is quite interesting. If you're not aware of the term, it describes a battery "assist" system going thru a conventional ICE drive line. It can assist motive power, but can not provide its own propulsion to independently power the car.

The battery is about the size of a shoebox, located in the rear of the car. It can provide assist 2 ways, it can power the accessory drive functions like the electric steering, air-conditioning, etc.....or it can add assisted power through the starter/generator (which is always engaged to the flywheel) and uses that motor as an all wheel electric drive assist through the transmission and drive system. It is not a plug in and recharges battery while driving.

It is virtually seamless and adds torque or removes parasitic load from the accessories on the engine when cruising.

The benefits are 42 mpg on the hwy from a 2 liter turbo 4 cyl with 0-60 times of 4.8 sec ( note: my wife's supercharged v6 S4 0-60 time is 4.7 sec). It also yields real world around town 27 mpg....in a 3900 lb car.

I think this is a cool transitional technology where legacy car makers can have both fuel economy and performance while leveraging their investments in traditional ICE engine auto designs.

Longer term it appears that all of the major US, japanese and European auto mfgrs are hedging their sole EV strategy with hydrogen cell technology. They have all announced huge investments in this parallel technology. Whether it is viable or practical is yet to be determined, but the false promises of a global EV powered transportation in the next 25 yrs just isn't likely nor environmentally sound.

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[VinnyDaFish]

I'm not sure if I will try to track the Integra Type-S. Has anyone looked into the suggested (or required) track prep vs the CTR? I haven't tracked a FWD in about 20 years and I think it would really be fun to get a feel for today's capability found in the ITS on a closed circuit.

 

[Rdrcr]

Back to the original purpose of the thread.

I saw a white CTR parked next to the ITS demo......there is no question that the CTR is less exciting than the ITS. Yes it has wing ( not my thing), but the voluptuous body styling, shape, flairs, rear facia makes the ITS the styling winner, IMO.

Driving wise, the ITS meets all of my needs for aggressive street driving but with the added plus of more creature comforts, more flexible suspension, longer warranty and freshness I like.

Yesterday I passed on a 2023 Blue CTR for $55k ( same price as the ITS msrp plus mats) bc the ITS is a better match for me.

This is my issue. Seeing the CTR vs ITS parked side-by-side, I actually prefer the moderate appearance of the CTR (even with the stupid wing). There are positives and negatives to both vehicles. Each has their own compromises. However, if I can get a CTR for MSRP, I’m finding more value there. I’m exploring my industry contacts to see if I can get a CTR for MSRP next year.

Mike

 

[optronix]

I'm not sure if I will try to track the Integra Type-S. Has anyone looked into the suggested (or required) track prep vs the CTR? I haven't tracked a FWD in about 20 years and I think it would really be fun to get a feel for today's capability found in the ITS on a closed circuit.

What kind of track driving are you attempting to do? I don't have a Type R but have to imagine that it should survive a few 20 minute sessions for an HPDE. The ITS shares all the same drivetrain components, should be no different at all.

If you want to get more serious then I'd agree, this isn't really the right choice for that but neither are half the cars I see at track days on a regular basis. That's what GT4s and fully stripped and prepped E30s and Miatas are for. But for a novice-level HPDE or timed runs I'm sure the typical pads/fluid would be fine.

I think the point of your question is what the difference for track "survivability" for a novice would be, and my take is there isn't any. It's the same car with different tuning priorities. The only actual track-specific advantages that aren't software are the seats.

 

[VinnyDaFish]

What kind of track driving are you attempting to do? I don't have a Type R but have to imagine that it should survive a few 20 minute sessions for an HPDE. The ITS shares all the same drivetrain components, should be no different at all.

If you want to get more serious then I'd agree, this isn't really the right choice for that but neither are half the cars I see at track days on a regular basis. That's what GT4s and fully stripped and prepped E30s and Miatas are for. But for a novice-level HPDE or timed runs I'm sure the typical pads/fluid would be fine.

I think the point of your question is what the difference for track "survivability" for a novice would be, and my take is there isn't any. It's the same car with different tuning priorities. The only actual track-specific advantages that aren't software are the seats.

I've done a few HPDE's over the years, but in vehicles with specific out of the box track packages (Camaro with 1LE and C8 Z51). Sometimes the HPDE organizers are sticklers about tow hooks and I haven't investigated how to install one on the ITS. Also wondering if it would be advisable to swap out the brake fluid for a higher-temp spec.

Heard a bit about engine heat management on the CTR and concerned something similar could arise here. Just want to enjoy the car on a closed course and have a fun day at 7 or 8/10ths on the track, not cause anything remotely problematic if I should take it out for an afternoon.

 

[Lflouie]

This is my issue. Seeing the CTR vs ITS parked side-by-side, I actually prefer the moderate appearance of the CTR (even with the stupid wing). There are positives and negatives to both vehicles. Each has their own compromises. However, if I can get a CTR for MSRP, I’m finding more value there. I’m exploring my industry contacts to see if I can get a CTR for MSRP next year.

Mike

I agree with your value assessment that at the current msrp to msrp levels the CTR wins (wing or no wing). The trouble with that proposition is that the CTR is unlikely to had at msrp. Given that global production is capped at approx 400/ month or 4800/ yr ( ITS is likely capped at 100/ week = approx 4800/yr), and demand continues to exceed the constrained output, plus inflation is driving up costs, a drop in the actual mkt adjusted price is simply not realistic.

In fact, it ACURA is able to command the $52k msrp on the ITS going forward I'm sure Honda will reprice the CTR msrp much closer to the ITS. Why would the factory forgo the profit the dealers are taking when they could get it and still sell everything they make....for both the ITS and CTR.

The pandemic has enabled auto mfgrs to restrict production and increase profits on selected models (Porsche has this business model nailed).

The days of sub $50k performance cars at or below msrp is numbered, and even now pretty much non-existant.

So whether you pay $12k ADM on a CTR ($56k) or $52k msrp plus a few add ons ($56k) for an ITS, They are variations of the same car at the same price to the consumer. If you like one style over the other, or the features of one.....it's still a mid $50k purchase......and is unlikely to decline until the the consumer demand changes or the mfrs increase supply.

 

[Rdrcr]

^^^^
Out of pure principle, I will not pay over MSRP, for any new vehicle. I am willing to pay 'market price' for pre-owned (and have for Porsche and others). My quest for a CTR at MSRP will be negotiated from Dealer Principle to Dealer Principle. So, we'll see. I'm well aware that they can and will sell EVERY CTR they get and it would be a 'favor' to sell one to me. Time will tell.

Mike

 

[ZeroGSR]

I've done a few HPDE's over the years, but in vehicles with specific out of the box track packages (Camaro with 1LE and C8 Z51). Sometimes the HPDE organizers are sticklers about tow hooks and I haven't investigated how to install one on the ITS. Also wondering if it would be advisable to swap out the brake fluid for a higher-temp spec.

Heard a bit about engine heat management on the CTR and concerned something similar could arise here. Just want to enjoy the car on a closed course and have a fun day at 7 or 8/10ths on the track, not cause anything remotely problematic if I should take it out for an afternoon.

Heat management was an issue on the first few model years FK8, they opened up the front grille a bit in the refresh and that helped, but didn't solve the problem. FL5 and DE5 have tons of airflow now and a much heavier duty intercooler. The radiator might be better also, don't remember. But long story short, it should be fine especially if you are only pushing it 8/10ths. Worst case, you pull off for cool down, as a "novice" you might even appreciate the break!

Brake fluid and possibly pads are always a good idea, probably not necessary for your first time out though but doesn't hurt. HPDEs are all different even when running on the same track. So figure out HPDE and track rules before heading out. I had tons of issues with my S2K and HPDEs because many require a cage, but that's the only issue I have run into. I haven't run into a track/HPDE with tow hook requirements personally but I know they exist. Honestly if you need a tow out, they will find a place to do it, you just might not like what part they use to do so...

 

[VinnyDaFish]

Heat management was an issue on the first few model years FK8, they opened up the front grille a bit in the refresh and that helped, but didn't solve the problem. FL5 and DE5 have tons of airflow now and a much heavier duty intercooler. The radiator might be better also, don't remember. But long story short, it should be fine especially if you are only pushing it 8/10ths. Worst case, you pull off for cool down, as a "novice" you might even appreciate the break!

Brake fluid and possibly pads are always a good idea, probably not necessary for your first time out though but doesn't hurt. HPDEs are all different even when running on the same track. So figure out HPDE and track rules before heading out. I had tons of issues with my S2K and HPDEs because many require a cage, but that's the only issue I have run into. I haven't run into a track/HPDE with tow hook requirements personally but I know they exist. Honestly if you need a tow out, they will find a place to do it, you just might not like what part they use to do so...

Very true -- having the tow hook available is an 'insurance policy' for exceeding my 8/10th's rule, but while they usually state it is required in the documentation, I'm not sure how much they enforce the tow hook rule. The downside is simply where they are going to yank the car if I get it beached somewhere. But reality is I just want to be able to enjoy this car in a closed environment where the ITS can show off a bit. The CTR's at the events have represented themselves very well. The SavageGeese release video got me wound up to try it on the track.

 

[Ministry]

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-acura-integra-type-s-first-test-review/

Triggered. The s is slower.

Looks like MT updated their official numbers after testing a second Type S.


5.2 vs 5.3 - 0-60
13.8 vs 13.9 - 1/4M

Kind of scary, though, knowing that there might be some under-performing duds out there....

 

[Integra23]

Not anymore. Looks like MT updated their official numbers after testing a second Type S.


5.2 vs 5.3 - 0-60
13.8 vs 13.9 - 1/4M

Kind of scary, though, knowing that there might be some under-performing duds out there....

They didn't disabled traction control.CTR in +R mode with the the traction control button toggled off almost completely disables traction control. On the ITS this isnt possible. You have to do a pedal dance to get it to fully disable. Motortrend did not state they did this.

 

[Ministry]

Source? Weird that they stated testing a 2nd car vs disabling TC.

 

[ZeroGSR]

They didn't disabled traction control.CTR in +R mode with the the traction control button toggled off almost completely disables traction control. On the ITS this isnt possible. You have to do a pedal dance to get it to fully disable. Motortrend did not state they did this.

Reminds me of the old Supra turbos, in the manual you had to cut a wire in order to disable traction control and it made a massive difference in the 1/4. Some magazines did it to get bragging rights. I also remember C&D taping all the panel gaps on the Mustang so they could get it into their 150mph+ shoot out, LOLOL.

 

[Ministry]

As a potential buyer, that makes me feel a bit better. I will do a test drive before signing but normally don't rip it too hard.

 

[ZeroGSR]

As a potential buyer, that makes me feel a bit better. I will do a test drive before signing but normally don't rip it too hard.

Just IMO, but these cars are NOT made for the 1/4, so any numbers you see are going to be variable and honestly, not all that important. Again, IMO. You know the weight of the car and you can see the powerband and peak hp from the dynos.

Another thing to note, watch the dyno videos to see how much of an impact heat soak/ambient temps are. You can see 60whp losses just from doing too many back to back runs, I was amazed. The FL5/DE5 is better in that regard than the FK8, but it's still an issue.

Having dragged some "high HP" FWD cars in my youth, I will say that launching these things is a dance of it's own.

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