Track suspension setup

[optronix]

Really appreciate all the info guys. Funny how messing with cooling makes things worse. People seem to be trying to fix what’s not really broken.
In 90%+ of use cases, we probably cannot approach the limits of a bone stock car.

I think there's plenty to be gained with smart modifications, but you do have to be careful and understand there's virtually always a trade-off. That's why I stalk Zygrene's channel above all others! It is DIRECTLY relevant to me and what I want ideally from my car. Let him go through it while I watch! If he makes a few bucks while he's at it, all the better!!!

I know I've stated in here before that even just the -15mm in offset from my Apex wheels noticeably impacted steering feel in a not so great way. But not enough to offset the aesthetic gains! (yes I've been called shallow at times)

That said, I am at the point now where I am clearly being held back on an autocross course by the things that came on the car from the factory. Namely, the PS4S tires and factory camber settings. I don't make it to a "real" race track often enough to hit the OEM limits in that setting, nor do I care to take it there just based on personal risk tolerance- but autocross I am indeed "driving FLAT OUT", and am definitely hitting those barriers.

I have always maintained that the car doesn't need any more power. That won't stop me from trying to enhance the sound, and if as a byproduct from that results in a ~20-30whp gain I won't shed a tear.

But overall, as a road car the car is nearly perfect as it comes from the factory. It's already been stated but I'll reiterate here- trying to turn this thing into a track beast will at best, be an exercise in frustration- as a few folks in here are currently discovering! At worst, a clear waste of time, money, and energy.

The Type S is perfect for being a "single car" option that can do many things very well, both from a track and street perspective. I don't really think there's a better car, at any price! that does it better. But... personally I'll never expect it to be truly "exceptional" in either category. There are objectively better platforms for both daily comfort, and track performance.

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[Fred 930]

Above illustrates the basic problem I have with many mods. They tend (for financial and time reasons) to be done in isolation, when you really must treat the car as a complex interaction of many systems. It's almost impossible to equal the expertise and development time invested by the factory engineering teams and hundreds / thousands of interrelated decisions they made while designing the car.

Since temperature is always a major concern (tires, brakes, inlet air, engine cooling, oil, transmission & differential) - pushing the car hard, or changing a single item (like the above intercooler), often results in a series of related updates - it's hard to stop! Making the whole process more difficult are the packaging constraints. Adding new or larger radiators, intercoolers, oil, transmission, & differential coolers, brake ducts, etc. takes space that is very difficult to find on a modern car - unless you start removing other stuff to make more room.

And once you start messing with finely tuned suspension parts, you are on your way to a better track car, but quickly sacrifice street enjoyment.

But it can be fun a fun process, so if you have the time, money, and other cars to drive when aftermarket crap breaks - go for it.

 

[NoVA_Teggy]

I don't have much to offer as it relates to OP's situation, but I can't help but echo what optronix said above. Trying to morph the ITS into a track monster is an exercise in futility, as the car is setup pretty well out the box anyway. The moment you start adding aftermarket parts, you quickly end up down the path of discovery learning.

I've tracked my ITS at Road Atlanta and VIR. I plan to hit up NJ Motorsports Park and the Poconos by September, then back to VIR in October. I'm not out there trying to crush lap times, but I keep up pretty well because I carry a lot of speed through turns.

Instead of spending a ton of money on power gains, tunes, etc., I think that money is much better spent on a Garmin Catalyst or Aim Solo 2 for data analysis in pursuit of getting faster. The moment you start screwing around with suspension mods, power, etc., it's like relearning the car all over again based on mods that weren't designed for the car. That's all good if you want to do a full on build but if you're on a path of discovery learning, you typically end up here.

I had an instructor at VIR for a few laps and there were tons of Porsches there that day. Aside from exhaust and sticky tires, many of them were stock GT3s and GT4 Caymans. I asked my instructor who owned a 981 GT4 how I could get faster and whether to start looking at more power, suspension, etc. He stopped me and said "Nope. Work on your line, analyze the data, get back out there and make your adjustments to get faster."

You may be doing that already but if not, I'd start there.

 

[btrip]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Thanks everyone for your input. After posting been busy installing the ball joints and spent the weekend at Mid-Ohio.

Adding negative camber completely solved my understeer issues. In fact the car was slightly oversteery, which I was able to dial out by lowering rear pressure.

I ended up going with full out on the ball joins which resulted in -4.5. A couple other fwd guys at the track also had camber around -4 for Mid-O.

I was 2nd fastest FWD in street class to an FK8 making a lot more power (+10mph on the straights). My optimal in the Catalyst was 1:35.5 which would have beat the FK8 and been good for a podium and FWD lap record.

I am seriously considering ditching the intercooler after reading up on it more. I didn’t ever hit limp mode but coolant gauge was almost to the top at the end of a couple of the afternoon heats after 5-6 laps.

Integra Type S - 1:37.1 GRIDLIFE Mid-Ohio Meet 6/30/24

 

[btrip]

The extra power is part of the problem as well I suspect. The car is very well engineered for the power it does have. In my limited experience, at VIR, I'm not able to come close to what a stock car is capable of doing. I need to work on my driving technique or just enjoy driving pretty fast and being safe, not trying to maximize my lap times. This car is fun but has it's limitations on track. But if you really want something aggressive on the track, rear wheel drive is the answer.

It's about money too. The car totally stock is probably 97% as capable as yours, it's the last few seconds that cost a fortune.

I would try to message Zygrene, and also get in touch with Point By Patrol. I bet they would have a lot to say on this topic.

I posted on civicx and Pointbypartol was kind enough to offer his input.

 

[btrip]

Oh boy, spicy topic. I just did 2 track days recently (Laguna Seca and Thunderhill West) and have some learnings to share:

1) Understeer. After swapping from 6k/10k springs to 7k/7k (per Ohlins recommendation as I'm helping them develop the FL5/DE5 kit), and keeping alignment, tires, etc the SAME as before, the car now understeers a lot more. I was over half a second slower at Laguna (same 65-70F ambient temp as when I did a 1:40.7), and 2 seconds slower at T-hill West although most of this can be attributed to the 90F+ ambient temp which I cover in my 2nd point below. I tried higher rear tire pressures on my V730 and increasing rear damping by 4 clicks, but that didn't do much.

I have a few more things to try before moving back to the 10k rear spring, including raising rear ride height slightly, maxing out front camber from -3.1 to hopefully -4 by adjusting my Whiteline camber joints, and increasing rear damping further. If those changes don't get me the result I want, I will try adding an aftermarket rear sway bar and/or throw the 10k springs back on while leaving the 7k up front. With the old 6/10 setup, understeer was still present but I could somewhat drive around it. Now it's just plain frustrating.

For context, Ohlins used their own DE5 and tested 4 different spring rate setups (6k/10k, 6k/8k, 6k/7k, and 7k/7k) on street and track, and determined that 7k/7k felt the best in both use cases. But in hindsight, it's obvious that increasing front rate by ~17% while reducing rear rate by 30% would lead to more understeer.

2) Overheating. This one is tricky because I installed a PRL intercooler and Acuity reverse flow radiator hoses just before the 2 track days. What I didn't realize is that the PRL intercooler's design effectively blocks half of the airflow from the bottom bumper vent, and this air needs to flow through to the radiator to cool the engine. Should have done my research. Not sure how much of the overheating can be attributed to this mod, versus the high ambient (90F+) temp at Thunderhill. Within 3 hard laps my stock coolant temp readout was reaching 6 bars out of 10. I'd only seen it go up to 5 before, at Laguna when it was 65-70F. And that only happened after 4-5 laps.

I'm now debating what to do. I can put the stock intercooler back in, and/or look into an aftermarket radiator, oil cooler, etc. I have NOT been monitoring oil temps at all, but I assume it's getting pretty hot.

Alternatively I can just avoid tracking this car in the summer. Keep in mind, this is primarily my daily so I don't want to push it too far with mods.

Also, videos of both track days will be posted to my channel some time in July.

Idk what to do about the intercooler. Is it even helping increase power/torque when the car isn’t running too hot??

Also, do you run a rear sway bar? I’ve been reading up a lot about spring rates, and how to dial in the best suspension setup. I’m sure a stiffer rear sway will help with the 7k/7k setup. I’m running the whiteline 22mm bar set to full stiff. With stock springs and the added camber the car was very neutral, with just a touch of oversteer.

-4.5 camber worked great for me at mid-o. Rear was stock and measured -2.5 on the alignment rack after the ball joints were installed. I also went with slight toe out up front and 0 toe rear. Just the alignment by itself completely dialed out the understeer. Interested in what stiffer spring will do for the overall handling feel.

PS: been following your YT channel. Keep up the great work!

 

[StingertimeNC]

Good stuff! I agree with NovaTeggy, Most of us just need to learn to drive better. At VIR, on the grand course (4.1 miles I think) I'm like 20+ seconds off what Car and Driver did for their lightning lap, in a bone stock car. Plenty of room for driver improvement. Now, I did shave 5 seconds off my previous best on their Full Course setup, 3.2 miles. Mostly driver, but maybe the switch to Eibach springs, rear sway, and 275 tires helped too.

After talking to Ben, (Point by patrol) for about an hour, I learned that my line is iffy in a lot of places, and it's inconsistent from lap to lap, Also I'm not carrying enough speed in most corners. Chalk it up to experience and balls! LOL.

Other side of that coin is I'm sort of casual with the track stuff. I just go up twice a year for some fun. Most important thing is not making any big mistakes and getting everything home in one piece.

That being said, I want to improve, just because I know it's in the car, but I just don't have the time or money to get the seat time in. Every 6 months I'm trying to get used to everything again before I start pushing the car and myself.

It's still a blast though and I get to get that itch scratched.

Hell, I haven't given it a go with TSC fully disabled yet. I did go hard enough last time to actually feel the car stepping in though. It's a weird sensation when the inside rear wheel brakes on it's own and points the nose in for you.

Maybe one day I'll get there.

 

[btrip]

Good stuff! I agree with NovaTeggy, Most of us just need to learn to drive better. At VIR, on the grand course (4.1 miles I think) I'm like 20+ seconds off what Car and Driver did for their lightning lap, in a bone stock car. Plenty of room for driver improvement. Now, I did shave 5 seconds off my previous best on their Full Course setup, 3.2 miles. Mostly driver, but maybe the switch to Eibach springs, rear sway, and 275 tires helped too.

After talking to Ben, (Point by patrol) for about an hour, I learned that my line is iffy in a lot of places, and it's inconsistent from lap to lap, Also I'm not carrying enough speed in most corners. Chalk it up to experience and balls! LOL.

Other side of that coin is I'm sort of casual with the track stuff. I just go up twice a year for some fun. Most important thing is not making any big mistakes and getting everything home in one piece.

That being said, I want to improve, just because I know it's in the car, but I just don't have the time or money to get the seat time in. Every 6 months I'm trying to get used to everything again before I start pushing the car and myself.

It's still a blast though and I get to get that itch scratched.

Hell, I haven't given it a go with TSC fully disabled yet. I did go hard enough last time to actually feel the car stepping in though. It's a weird sensation when the inside rear wheel brakes on it's own and points the nose in for you.

Maybe one day I'll get there.

VIR, especially the esses, is definitely a balls track. You have to trust your tires are going to stick, thru the esses and out of Hog Pen. 275 wide tires definitely help. What brand did you go with? I’m running RT660s. There are benefits and drawbacks with that tire, but that’s for a separate thread.

I would not recommend VSC fully off until you are very comfortable with track driving. Especially if you are used to or are coming from a RWD car.

This is not a brag, but I have never tracked a car until this year when I did VIR in the Type S in March. My instructor was stunned at how fast I was. I ran a 2:12.5 on the full course after four sessions, about 16 laps. Won top novice for the event and 2nd place in my class with 14 mostly experienced drivers.

I chalk up my expedited learning curve to doing a full season of autox in 2023 in a friend’s Elantra N, which really helped me understand what a sporty FWD handles like at the limit of grip. Without that autox experience I would have never been able to be as fast as I was my first time on track.

Fear is the only thing holding most people back, which is understandable. But I can’t recommend autox enough as a place to get started and begin to understand your car.

Which Eibach spring set did you go with? I don’t want the car lowered for the looks, but rather for the performance benefit/stiffer spring rate which should help with cornering and braking. I have another car to daily so I consider my Type S as a “streetable track car”, rather than a “trackable street car“ therefore street comfort is not a concern. I’m also thinking of swapping to the FL5 ADS module for the more track-focused damping.

 

[StingertimeNC]

2:12 is hauling ass!! Very Impressive. My Best is 2:27. Running Conti Extreme contacts. Even with street tires My car could handle a 2:16, I just can't get myself to send it.

Eibach Pro Kit springs, though honestly I like them for looks just as much as whatever handling benefit I might get. I track the car 4 days a year, But I look at it every day of the year so looks/stance, etc. are just as important. I ran my stinger sub 2:20 on full course, but was tuned with close to 475 WHP. I could make up some time in the straights.

Springs did help me settle the rear down on track, not as much nose dive in braking so it was just less squirmy. Helped with confidence to some degree.

I haven't gotten to the point where i have dedicated track wheels/tires yet. I usually trade cars every 3-4 years so I always struggle with how much money am I going to throw at the car, just to start over again in 3 years.

I really want a c8 Vette, or a Porsche Cayman as my next ride. I'm never satisfied.

I really thought the ITS was going to be easy at the track with far superior handling vs. the Stinger, but the Stinger was easier to drive. Much more planted on the track. ITS moves around a lot. I just haven't had as much time with it yet. I'll be happy if I can get it sub 2:19 on full course.

 

[btrip]

Check out my YouTube page for my VIR and Pocono laps!

I’ve driven the Stinger (not with 475 to the wheels) and it for sure is more planted than the Type S albeit quite heavier. I can imagine it’s quite a change on track to get your head wrapped around.

Is the Pro Kit noticeably stiffer? I definitely want springs, but not sure which ones will suit the car best on track. Hard to find good info since most people do them for the aesthetic. Understeer is my enemy so I don’t want the rear too settled. I do have the Whiteline 22mm sway bar.

Man.. The 718 Cayman is a beast on track! (At least the higher HP versions). The C8 needs no introduction but takes a lot of skill to really get the most out of from what I’ve seen. Anyone out there that just wants a fast track car, look at a C6 Z06. For what you can buy those for now it’s hard to match the performance out of the box.

 

[Zygrene]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Thanks everyone for your input. After posting been busy installing the ball joints and spent the weekend at Mid-Ohio.

Adding negative camber completely solved my understeer issues. In fact the car was slightly oversteery, which I was able to dial out by lowering rear pressure.

I ended up going with full out on the ball joins which resulted in -4.5. A couple other fwd guys at the track also had camber around -4 for Mid-O.

I was 2nd fastest FWD in street class to an FK8 making a lot more power (+10mph on the straights). My optimal in the Catalyst was 1:35.5 which would have beat the FK8 and been good for a podium and FWD lap record.

I am seriously considering ditching the intercooler after reading up on it more. I didn’t ever hit limp mode but coolant gauge was almost to the top at the end of a couple of the afternoon heats after 5-6 laps.

Great info. I'm going to max out my camber joints and see how much that gets me. Should be at least -4. I might also go back to the 10kg rear spring. FF needs all the help it can get to turn lol.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Check out my YouTube page for my VIR and Pocono laps!

I’ve driven the Stinger (not with 475 to the wheels) and it for sure is more planted than the Type S albeit quite heavier. I can imagine it’s quite a change on track to get your head wrapped around.

Is the Pro Kit noticeably stiffer? I definitely want springs, but not sure which ones will suit the car best on track. Hard to find good info since most people do them for the aesthetic. Understeer is my enemy so I don’t want the rear too settled. I do have the Whiteline 22mm sway bar.

Man.. The 718 Cayman is a beast on track! (At least the higher HP versions). The C8 needs no introduction but takes a lot of skill to really get the most out of from what I’ve seen. Anyone out there that just wants a fast track car, look at a C6 Z06. For what you can buy those for now it’s hard to match the performance out of the box.

C6 Z06, hmmm. LOL. I think I'll have the ITS for a bit more, see how it goes.

With the Pro kit springs the car is noticeably stiffer for sure, however, on track there's still plenty of body roll. To me the ITS is nice and flat on the street, but under high load that puppy leans quite a bit.

 

[optronix]

C6 Z06, hmmm. LOL. I think I'll have the ITS for a bit more, see how it goes.

With the Pro kit springs the car is noticeably stiffer for sure, however, on track there's still plenty of body roll. To me the ITS is nice and flat on the street, but under high load that puppy leans quite a bit.

Body roll isn't necessarily a bad thing in all contexts. Again, try to understand what you actually want out of the car. If it's to go as absolutely fast as possible around a race track, let me reiterate that I don't think this is the platform to try to accomplish this. Neither is the FL5.

These cars "punch above their weight class" for sure, and with a competent driver can be loads of fun and not just run with but make far more expensive and "prestigious" cars look silly- but there were still engineering compromises made that will always hold it back from being a truly "S tier" track-oriented platform.

A C6 Z06 is a tantalizing option, for sure! EXTREMELY capable out of the box (might need a little attention in the cooling department from what I hear), but also a smaller margin of error for inexperienced drivers. But I do have to agree, there probably isn't a better cost/performance option on the market these days... the only other I'd have to really think hard about is the 718 Cayman S/GTS (with the 2.5L turbo flat-4). Not as fast as the C6 Z06, but a much more "forgiving" chassis, incredibly easy to drive fast- and both could be had for probably around the same price.

Camaro ZL1 or 1LE deserves a nod here too.

All distinctly better options for a track-first kind of car than the ITS.

 

[NoVA_Teggy]

Lots of good discussion here and I'm soaking it all in. btrip, awesome that you were able to get your car dialed in!

For the east coast guys, if we can get enough of us together, I'd love to put something together for a track event. We could crash Ken Kirkham's Track Days at VIR in October. If the price remains the same as Road Atlanta, it'll be $475/day and no requirement to attend both days. I for sure will be there, but if others are interested, I say let's do it.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Totally agree on the body roll thing. It doesn’t bother me, and it can even help you feel when you’re pushing the car, etc. I just thought it was an interesting observation how much more soft the car feels on the track versus the street.

While I do want a Porsche or a vet or something crazy, how embarrassing would it be to run the same kind of laptops in a much more capable car. Lol.

I am kind of looking for that easy to drive fast car, which I know the C8 is as well as the Cayman. And when I say drive fast, I mean run 210 or less on full course at VIR without being super dangerous. I agree on the Corvettes being a little dicey at 10:10. I don’t see myself ever running two minute laps regardless of what car I have. I just don’t spend enough time at the track to get that comfortable.
Researching Corvettes the last couple days I’ve found out that the C7 transport is actually faster than the C8 at VIR. I just wish the interior was a bit nicer. I do like the look of the outside of the car.
Grand sports can be had in the 60 K range no problem. With the CA being 99% capable as the transport out of the box, I feel like you have to get the C8 just because of the rest of the package.

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