ForeverCar’s ITS Journal

[optronix]

You'll get a lot of opinions, but I think a 997.1S or 987.1S is a good buy. Theoretically they have the IMS issue, but failures are rare relative the 986/996. (Note: I had a 996.1 in which the motor grenaded due to IMS. New motor, $15k.).

I'm trying to get my partner to get one of them (997.1S or 987.1S). I don't love that she track drives a soft top (986 2.7), and that car is kinda slow. Haven't talked her into it yet.

You can spend more if you want to, but you don't have to.

I will say the 997.1 is too soft, so I'd budget for springs, dampers, and sways. Same is likely true for 997.2, but I have not driven one in anger.

If the engine goes you could always do this:

I'm going to throw a wrench of a question towards you guys that have more experience than me and let it be noted that this is a car I'd be considering after the kids are grown and everything will already be paid off. Probably close to 10 years if I'm thinking realistically if my career doesn't drastically change.

The 9 series Porsche's you've all mentioned OR...(and don't kick my ass TOO bad here)

A C7 Stingray with some of the high end package options.

A GTR.

A modern NSX.

For those of you that have been blessed enough to compare Porsche to any of these....still choose Porsche as the superior experience?

These are all good options, and depending on budget and certain subjective tastes, all could easily fit the bill for an awesome "toy" car. I haven't experienced the ones you listed directly but I'll share my thoughts as an enthusiast because I'm always happy to do that anyway .

- C7, let's just say Z06- AWESOME CAR. And probably could be had for a reasonable amount. Definitely a stingray, but even a Z06 is probably a bargain in the high-end performance car market. Tons of power, tons of capability- but there are some significant issues I've heard about for heavy track use so it would definitely be worth some due diligence if that's a use case (it should be!). But huge power, amazing sound, great chassis- although you'll have to get the starter kit:

- GTR- also an amazing car. Still expensive, and VERY expensive if something goes wrong. Arguably one of the best performing cars at any price, and can be brought up to literal insane levels of power (could say the same about the vette...). No manual available. Some argue they feel "synthetic" but IDK about that... I think it's just a distilled race car you can drive on the street. You will probably get a ton of attention in a GTR, both good and bad...

- new NSX. I love these things. But they're still very expensive and I think they've hit the bottom of the depreciation curve too, could be wrong but I wouldn't be surprised to see prices going back up because there aren't many of them... but I think all things considered I personally would almost certainly take a 911 over an NSX. The NSX is more rare and "exotic", but the 911 is almost surely a better driver's car. And probably cheaper too, at least anything below a 992 GTS would be.

My .02. Folks who've actually driven or owned these cars would provide better insight.

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[bvanlieu]

C7 is a great sports car, and with the right options finally a quality interior. You are not going to find a better value play but its not just about numbers (as my comments earlier elude to slow cars fast are often more fun). Jort jokes aside, its hard to argue with their performance and they are track monsters as well.

GTR/Gen2 NSX are technology marvels that lack soul and a manual to me is part of that experience. The fact that the GTR still hangs 15+ years later is a testament to the package but its heavy and dull at times, but point and shoot fast.

Gen 1 NSX is my all time favorite car in that segment, just missed the good windows to pick one up. Timing wasn't right, c'est la vie. That's when it comes down to : cars for car lovers are not rational decisions at times and you go with what you just want.

 

[ForeverCar]

@bpebler I had a 2010 GT-R and a 2015 GT-R. Vette wise, had 2 C5 (one ended up being a Lingenfelter 427 TT) and played with a C6 Z6 a bunch. I don’t have direct experience with C7 or NSX.

Some aspects for you to consider,

• We often over estimate the change in 1 year and underestimate the change in 10. I think it applies to preferences too.
• Corvettes are tough to beat in terms of performance per dollar.
• GT-R is legendary so it is always worth considering IMO. I was tempted bu the Takumi edition and realize I was looking for distractions
• I have heard great things about the NSX Type S. Given how amazing the ITS is, I would not be surprised if I would love it too.

 

[bpebler]

Thanks for all of your all's insights!

Sounds like if it comes down to price, the Z06, 07 would be the choice. The C7.R I'm sure would be higher. GM as a whole definitely took entirely too long to update the interiors - big reason I got out of the Silverado & in the loaded Ram's. $75k tho and they depreciate immediately.

I plan on keeping the ITS, so a manual only option wouldn't be completely ruled out when I'm 50 & also depends on if my wife is actually going to learn how to drive this manual and wants to continue to. I'm waiting on 1-2 more revision tunes to complete after upgrading to the Kuro turbo with all other bolt on's minus fuel (which I don't think I'm messing with), so will be close to mid 400's. The good thing about this and the MHI turbos that I recently found out is that they can also be ran on the stock tune. In case you want to tone it back down for events or certain roads (@optronix ).

I think yes, the NSX & GTR prices will continue to increase. I wish I didn't need a truck a few years ago, otherwise I would've had one already when they were much more affordable.

Which 2000 years of Porsche to avoid? I have a local specialty dealer who invests in flipping cars in segments. He went through a custom Wrangler thing for a while, then luxury speed, then some Porsche's with one left I'll share a link to, and has a ton of Vipers right now. Plus always a couple one off vehicles. It is an auto however and a 2012. At this price it looks like I could get a better deal locally on something newer anyway.

https://www.scoreboardauto.com/vdp/20468083/Used-2012-Porsche-911-for-sale-in-Eureka-MO

 

[nix6speed]

Which 2000 years of Porsche to avoid? I have a local specialty dealer who invests in flipping cars in segments. He went through a custom Wrangler thing for a while, the luxury speed, then some Porsche's with one left I'll share a link to, and has a ton of Vipers right now. Plus always a couple one off vehicles. It is an auto however and a 2012. At this price it looks like I could get a better deal locally on something newer anyway.

https://www.scoreboardauto.com/vdp/20468083/Used-2012-Porsche-911-for-sale-in-Eureka-MO

That wrap is awful. Yes, you can remove it but yikes.

If you're considering a C7 the Grand Sport with a manual is the sweet spot. I had a 2017 Camaro ZL1 (Same engine as C7 Z06 just wet sump) LT4s are a lot more power but those little blowers produce a ton of heat even in stock form. Grand Sport has the same widebody, is lighter, has dry sump, and the manual is better than the hit or miss 8-Speed. If you could get a C7 with a 10-Speed the gearbox choices would be perfect for either. I think the GS values staying relatively high says a lot about them being the sweet spot too.

 

[bpebler]

That wrap is awful. Yes, you can remove it but yikes.

If you're considering a C7 the Grand Sport with a manual is the sweet spot. I had a 2017 Camaro ZL1 (Same engine as C7 Z06 just wet sump) LT4s are a lot more power but those little blowers produce a ton of heat even in stock form. Grand Sport has the same widebody, is lighter, has dry sump, and the manual is better than the hit or miss 8-Speed. If you could get a C7 with a 10-Speed the gearbox choices would be perfect for either. I think the GS values staying relatively high says a lot about them being the sweet spot too.

Yes, way too loud and bright for me. Lol

I did see the GS has some great features for the price! This was what I was going off of before getting distracted with turbo and tunes.
https://xtremecfm.com/blogs/muscle-...vette-z06-an-american-performance-icon-reborn

Now THIS color is pretty much the most perfect color for nearly any sports car in my opinion. And in this model is just 🤌

 

[ForeverCar]

@bpebler That Porsche looks to have aftermarket body parts and color could be amethyst metallic.

For 911, 996 and 997.1 (naturally aspirated, non-GT) has the IMS bearing risk. A properly rebuilt one is nothing to worry about. If you have a great local shop that charges reasonable rate, it can still be a great value buy. 996 and 997.1 turbos and GT cars run the Mezger engine and the coolant pipes adhesive can fail. For hard use, getting them welded and pressure tested afterwards might be the best way to resolve the risk (finding competent aluminum welder to work on it might be tough depending on where you are). Water pumps and coil packs are sort of weak points too. Besides GT cars, I think 997.2 went to direct injection. They seem to have held up pretty well. 991.1 GT3 had early engine issues (if you want one of those, Rennlist has some great info). Prior to PDK, the tiptronic auto can be kinda “meh”. The newer 7-speed manual gates are pretty crowded. GT cars 6-speed manuals are pretty sweet (991 onwards). 996 and 997 generations GT cars have pretty stiff clutches and the transmission can feel a bit “grumpy”. Although I think 911s are fantastic, I also think it’s a unique experience that might not resonate with you. If you can find a way to play with one for an extended period of time and a good bit of miles the way you intend to use the car, it is a great way to go.

 

[optronix]

Thanks for all of your all's insights!

Sounds like if it comes down to price, the Z06, 07 would be the choice. The C7.R I'm sure would be higher. GM as a whole definitely took entirely too long to update the interiors - big reason I got out of the Silverado & in the loaded Ram's. $75k tho and they depreciate immediately.

I plan on keeping the ITS, so a manual only option wouldn't be completely ruled out when I'm 50 & also depends on if my wife is actually going to learn how to drive this manual and wants to continue to. I'm waiting on 1-2 more revision tunes to complete after upgrading to the Kuro turbo with all other bolt on's minus fuel (which I don't think I'm messing with), so will be close to mid 400's. The good thing about this and the MHI turbos that I recently found out is that they can also be ran on the stock tune. In case you want to tone it back down for events or certain roads (@optronix ).

I think yes, the NSX & GTR prices will continue to increase. I wish I didn't need a truck a few years ago, otherwise I would've had one already when they were much more affordable.

Which 2000 years of Porsche to avoid? I have a local specialty dealer who invests in flipping cars in segments. He went through a custom Wrangler thing for a while, the luxury speed, then some Porsche's with one left I'll share a link to, and has a ton of Vipers right now. Plus always a couple one off vehicles. It is an auto however and a 2012. At this price it looks like I could get a better deal locally on something newer anyway.

https://www.scoreboardauto.com/vdp/20468083/Used-2012-Porsche-911-for-sale-in-Eureka-MO

For the Porsches, you're gonna want a 2009 and above to avoid the IMS bearing issues entirely. Again, not a dealbreaker in the sense of "absolutely do not consider buying one"... but personally I'd rather just make it a non-factor and get an 09 or newer.

That 2012 with the horrendous wrap is actually a great car. It's a 997 GTS, which are exceedingly rare. More rare than they should be... because they're actually not really that "special" in that generation. The GTS model is supposed to be a "middle ground" between the street-oriented Carrera S and the track-oriented GT3... but in the 997 it was really just a "parts bin special" with a bunch of available options on the S that come as standard on the GTS. Later models added more "bespoke" things like parts from higher end cars or a wider body and rear track that's available on the coupe for the GTS but can only be had on the AWD model on the S... But the GTS model debuted on the 911 in the 997.2 generation, making that one you posted a "1st gen" Carrera GTS. It has a PDK, not a tiptronic so it's actually a great transmission- if you're not familiar the Porsche PDK is arguably the best dual-clutch transmission there is. The newer generations get better and better, but even the one in that 997.2 is going to be a blast to drive despite not having a 3rd pedal.

In any case, the 997 GTS is high on my list of "eyebrow raising" cars. That one is priced "acceptably"... it's not laughably priced but that car has a lot of miles for a Porsche, a highly questionable wrap, and is still a 13 year old car going for $80k. But there aren't too many of them around. Get rid of the wrap and it's a very nice car IMO.

 

[bpebler]

Sorry for the delay, been a little crazy over here lately. Thank you for the detailed explanations! I'd certainly opt for the newer option to avoid the bearing issue. Coolant pipes, no big deal. I do have a very reputable aluminum welder near me who works on all sorts of cars. It seems as though the automatic transmission brains in these don't have a problem thinking either, so maybe enjoyable for my wife as well. She is willing to learn how to drive this manual currently but I don't think she's going to crave it like we do. By the time lunchtime rolls around I'm itching to hit the road even if it's for no good reason at all.

Now I'm wondering if this dealer would let me test drive it if I'd let him test drive mine now that it's modded.

 

[ne_de5]

Are you the same ForeverCar that bought 4 (four) S2000s? How many do you still have?

 

[ForeverCar]

Are you the same ForeverCar that bought 4 (four) S2000s? How many do you still have?

Yes

I sold 3 of them and still have one (currently at PTuning). That is why I have a lot of S2000 parts that I am selling on s2ki (mainly engine and engine parts).

 

[ForeverCar]

The weather has been pretty nice in the PNW so it has been tough to stop driving the 911T. However, there was a reason for me to switch back to the ITS for a bit.

The cool thing is, the moment I start driving the ITS, it feels special and enjoyable. Acura, truly well done!

 

[ForeverCar]

Around 4600 miles on my ITS now and i lt has been very fun!

I dropped it off at the dealership today though. CEL (emission system and rev match system were the messages). Limp mode, no boost.

Hopefully it’s minor and an easy fix.

 

[ForeverCar]

Around 4600 miles on my ITS now and i lt has been very fun!

I dropped it off at the dealership today though. CEL (emission system and rev match system were the messages). Limp mode, no boost.

Hopefully it’s minor and an easy fix.

Supposedly, it just needed a software update. I’m a bit suspicious. We shall see…

 

[ForeverCar]

Not much ITS news lately as I have been driving the 911s.

Last weekend, I had a chance to do a back-to-back drive 911 T (992.1) and 911 GT3 Touring (992.1). Both of them are manual. I thought I would share some of my observations as some of you might find them interesting,

• Maybe the most surprising is that the GT3 does not ride much stiffer/harsher. Both cars have tires that came from the factory and tire pressures according to the door sticker. 911 T is 37psi/45psi (F/R) and GT3 is 32psi/35psi (F/R).
• The GT3 is louder and I can feel more engine vibration.
• Yes, the 9k rpm redline of the GT3 is very special. However, the 911 T has a power band that is also exciting to "chase the redline".
• As I get older, the GT3 is getting close to being too loud.
• The GT3 is more sensitive to road cambers and the double wishbone front end is game changing in terms of turn in sharpness.
• Steering wheel and clutch pedal feel lighter in the GT3.
• Both are truly amazing cars.

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