Integra Type S on Ohlins vs FL5 CTR

[bpebler]

Thanks for the sub! Bit of a spoiler for my upcoming video comparing my car against Gridzilla's FL5: his new suspension (AST Moton Doteki-spec 8k/10k 2-ways) feels super sharp with great damping for track use, but they're much firmer than my Öhlins and a little too harsh on the street in my opinion. The Öhlins aren't perfect either though. They need to retune the rear setup to match the stiffer FL5/DE5 chassis. As of right now, all the options for our platform seem to be a compromise or slightly flawed if you're looking for great ride quality on the street. That said, I'm still overall satisfied with the Öhlins.

Thanks for the insider info! That pretty much settles it for me going the Ohlin’s route since it’s still a family car at times. I’ll probably only see 2-3 track days a month at the most for now, so it definitely makes more sense than the Doteki spec. Or wait to see if anything else or updates comes out from Ohlin for the DE5 over the next year or so, but I probably won’t hold my breath for it.

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[kjechel]

For those installing single-adjustable shocks for the first time, here's a useful guide: https://motoiq.com/how-to-adjust-your-shocks-part-one-single-adjustable-shocks.

From that post, here's a Cause & Effect List for shock settings that might be worth printing and taking to the track with you:

MORE FRONT REBOUND
-Sharper turn-in.
-More response to steering input.
-Feels good and responsive in transitions
-Feels good for most drivers but, this can fool them into adding too much.
-Most things happen at the corner entrance

TOO MUCH FRONT REBOUND
-Tire shock
-Poor harsh uncomfortable ride
-The front suspension packs down progressively on bumps, getting harsher and harsher. Front of the car bobs and jiggles around.
-The front of the car skips under cornering and braking and has no traction.
-The front of the car has poor traction in bumpy turns.
-Sometimes poor corner exit traction due to poor dynamic weight transfer to the rear wheels (noticeable in drifting the most).
-Poor off-the-line traction for drag launches.

TOO LITTLE FRONT REBOUND
-The front of the car feels floaty and scary when going fast, especially under undulations or pavement height variations. Feels like a boat.
-Slow sluggish turn-in, the steering wheel feels like it’s leaning the car rather than turning it.
-The car gets blown around in the wind.
-The front of the car gets light at speed.
-The front of the car rears up and loses the front grip on the corner exit.

MORE REAR REBOUND
-Slows rear rotation, can make use of trail braking or lift throttle to rotate car easier to manage and catch
-Adds rear stability in high-speed turns.
-Can add traction at the corner exit, the car hunkers down on throttle.
-Reduces braking dive and rear wheel lock-up.
-Adds stability on transitions
-The back of the car follows the front better
-More traction in a drag launch

TOO MUCH REAR REBOUND
-Tire Shock
-Poor harsh uncomfortable ride
-Car loses rear grip in general
-The rear suspension packs down progressively on bumps, getting harsher and harsher. Rear of the car bobs and jiggles around.
-Delayed corner exit oversteer, the car can understeer on the corner entrance and oversteer the corner exit, this is very undesirable!

TOO LITTLE REAR REBOUND
-The rear of the car feels floaty and scary when going fast, especially under undulations or pavement height variations. Feels like a boat.
-The back of the car feels unstable and scary, especially in cornering and transitions, car wants to suddenly snap into oversteer, not good.
-The car might drag launch ok but loses traction past 40 feet or so.
-The car has a generally unstable feel, even if the front feels good.

MotoIQ.com has a wealth of other information you may find interesting and useful.

 

[ST675R]

I’ll probably only see 2-3 track days a month at the most for now, so it definitely makes more sense than the Doteki spec.

Is "2-3 track days a month" a typo? That's a lot of track days!

 

[bpebler]

Is "2-3 track days a month" a typo? That's a lot of track days!

It wouldn’t be every month though & that would be the MOST I’d see. April-September at best, & some months I probably won’t go at all depending on what we’re doing family wise. 2x a month for 3-6 months out of the year to get my practice in would be ideal. Hopefully.

 

[bpebler]

For those installing single-adjustable shocks for the first time, here's a useful guide: https://motoiq.com/how-to-adjust-your-shocks-part-one-single-adjustable-shocks.

From that post, here's a Cause & Effect List for shock settings that might be worth printing and taking to the track with you:

MORE FRONT REBOUND
-Sharper turn-in.
-More response to steering input.
-Feels good and responsive in transitions
-Feels good for most drivers but, this can fool them into adding too much.
-Most things happen at the corner entrance

TOO MUCH FRONT REBOUND
-Tire shock
-Poor harsh uncomfortable ride
-The front suspension packs down progressively on bumps, getting harsher and harsher. Front of the car bobs and jiggles around.
-The front of the car skips under cornering and braking and has no traction.
-The front of the car has poor traction in bumpy turns.
-Sometimes poor corner exit traction due to poor dynamic weight transfer to the rear wheels (noticeable in drifting the most).
-Poor off-the-line traction for drag launches.

TOO LITTLE FRONT REBOUND
-The front of the car feels floaty and scary when going fast, especially under undulations or pavement height variations. Feels like a boat.
-Slow sluggish turn-in, the steering wheel feels like it’s leaning the car rather than turning it.
-The car gets blown around in the wind.
-The front of the car gets light at speed.
-The front of the car rears up and loses the front grip on the corner exit.

MORE REAR REBOUND
-Slows rear rotation, can make use of trail braking or lift throttle to rotate car easier to manage and catch
-Adds rear stability in high-speed turns.
-Can add traction at the corner exit, the car hunkers down on throttle.
-Reduces braking dive and rear wheel lock-up.
-Adds stability on transitions
-The back of the car follows the front better
-More traction in a drag launch

TOO MUCH REAR REBOUND
-Tire Shock
-Poor harsh uncomfortable ride
-Car loses rear grip in general
-The rear suspension packs down progressively on bumps, getting harsher and harsher. Rear of the car bobs and jiggles around.
-Delayed corner exit oversteer, the car can understeer on the corner entrance and oversteer the corner exit, this is very undesirable!

TOO LITTLE REAR REBOUND
-The rear of the car feels floaty and scary when going fast, especially under undulations or pavement height variations. Feels like a boat.
-The back of the car feels unstable and scary, especially in cornering and transitions, car wants to suddenly snap into oversteer, not good.
-The car might drag launch ok but loses traction past 40 feet or so.
-The car has a generally unstable feel, even if the front feels good.

MotoIQ.com has a wealth of other information you may find interesting and useful.

Thanks a TON for all of this useful info!! Good for a newb like me.

 

[optronix]

It wouldn’t be every month though. April-September at best & some months I probably won’t go at all depending on what we’re doing family wise. 2x a month for 3-6 months out of the year to get my practice in would be ideal

With that much volume, you'll catch up quickly.

Seriously, I don't think you may realize just how much track time that is. To be clear, that is definitely heavy track use. I expect to hit the track for a true "track day" maybe 2-3 times a year. I'll supplement this with 4-5 autocross/trackcross events a year. That's generally plenty for me.

To put it in perspective a bit, you can expect to replace your tires after your 4th or 5th track day, assuming ~4-5 20+ minute sessions per event. You'll only go through them faster as you get faster.

Actually, you're currently running all seasons, right? I don't think you'll get 4-5 sessions out of all seasons. I wouldn't recommend them, TBH... maybe for your first event if you expect to take it very easy, but you're going to want to put the stock PS4S on again, at a minimum.

 

[bpebler]

With that much volume, you'll catch up quickly.

Seriously, I don't think you may realize just how much track time that is. To be clear, that is definitely heavy track use. I expect to hit the track for a true "track day" maybe 2-3 times a year. I'll supplement this with 4-5 autocross/trackcross events a year. That's generally plenty for me.

To put it in perspective a bit, you can expect to replace your tires after your 4th or 5th track day, assuming ~4-5 20+ minute sessions per event. You'll only go through them faster as you get faster.

Actually, you're currently running all seasons, right? I don't think you'll get 4-5 sessions out of all seasons. I wouldn't recommend them, TBH... maybe for your first event if you expect to take it very easy, but you're going to want to put the stock PS4S on again, at a minimum.

This is simultaneously both encouraging & discouraging.

I definitely didn’t realize that was heavy track use. At least I didn’t think it was heavy enough to eat through tires that quick! So I will also supplement with autoX a bit to even out the cost of going through the tires so quickly and probably drop the actual track days to just 1x/month and try to go spring-fall. Unless this potential new travel job within the company is going to pay more than expected, then maybe I’ll reconsider

Yes, I have all seasons now but I wouldn’t want to track those either, I agree. I don’t think I’d trust myself with them TBH. Lol I’m sure they’ll continue to be a great wet, winter Midwest tire but I miss the grip of the oem tires for sure & I don’t think they even compare to the PS4’s. As expected, probably. I haven’t fully committed to the decision yet, but I think I’ll put the oem wheels back on to get some mileage out of the tires & also add a set of the PS4’s to the Apex wheels. I’d like to absolutely try the 200TW Bridgestone’s that people are raving about. So I have some thinking to do. Maybe start with the OEM setup first & then go to the 200TW as I improve or need them would be best.

 

[optronix]

This is simultaneously both encouraging & discouraging.

I definitely didn’t realize that was heavy track use. At least I didn’t think it was heavy enough to eat through tires that quick! So I will also supplement with autoX a bit to even out the cost of going through the tires so quickly and probably drop the actual track days to just 1x/month and try to go spring-fall. Unless this potential new travel job within the company is going to pay more than expected, then maybe I’ll reconsider

Yes, I have all seasons now but I wouldn’t want to track those either, I agree. I don’t think I’d trust myself with them TBH. Lol I’m sure they’ll continue to be a great wet, winter Midwest tire but I miss the grip of the oem tires for sure & I don’t think they even compare to the PS4’s. As expected, probably. I haven’t fully committed to the decision yet, but I think I’ll put the oem wheels back on to get some mileage out of the tires & also add a set of the PS4’s to the Apex wheels. I’d like to absolutely try the 200TW Bridgestone’s that people are raving about. So I have some thinking to do. Maybe start with the OEM setup first & then go to the 200TW as I improve or need them would be best.

Well, take my estimates with a grain of salt. I'm going off how long I personally would expect tires to last; could be more or less based on a variety of factors and I don't really have the vast quantities of track experience to be a primary resource, by my own admission.

As long as you’re not pushing the car VERY hard the PS4s hold up pretty well, I definitely encourage you to burn through those to save a good ~$1200 or so, especially as you're learning. You likely won't be anywhere near the point of pushing that hard when you’re first starting out anyway- but I’ve never driven a car that's just so inviting to drive on track, so it wouldn't be very surprising if it wasn't very long before your comfort level grows, and your tire budget will suffer as a result. I think you'll also find out though that a full track day can be quite exhausting; you may not WANT to go more than once a month. If you find that you do, watch out- it can be quite addicting. And that's when it gets REALLY expensive...

As for the all seasons? Yeah if you can avoid even trying them on track, you're probably better for it. I'd say it could be a useful exercise to ascertain the differences and start your track journey with lower limits but... nah. Not worth it. As I mentioned, the OEM Michelins do a pretty good job and I would recommend starting there.

200 TW tires like RE-71RS or Cup 2s are definitely an upgrade but as you can probably guess they wear even faster, and as I mentioned it will probably take you a bit to reach the limits of the PS4S. Money no object I don't really see a reason NOT to go with a 200 TW tire, but just like what I'm doing, I'm at least attempting to get the Michelins to a state where they should be replaced anyway before I move on from them. That said I'm sure someone would probably buy a solid set of gently used PS4S for a reasonable sum pretty readily, if that's a direction you may want to go to recoup some of those funds.

Anyway, you just need to get out there and get some seat time and find out how much energy, time, and money you're willing to invest in this hobby. Another recommendation is look for some sort of opportunity for instructor-led training and/or seat time in a car that isn't yours. For me, I went to the BMW Performance Center; the BMW CCA has a periodic promotion where certain chapters have greatly reduced rates, and I can't recommend something like that enough. Obviously Skip Barber school or some shit like that will run in the multiple thousand dollar range, but if you can find something like the "M Club day" like I did where I paid $750 for a full day of instructor-led seat time in factory M cars, by ALL MEANS go for it. You will accelerate your learning exponentially, AND not have to worry about wear and tear on your car...

 

[kjechel]

Thanks a TON for all of this useful info!! Good for a newb like me.

If you plan on becoming a serious track rat you should consider getting a Garmin Catalyst (ask @Zygrene how he likes his). It's much more than a lap timer/data logger/video recorder - it's an AI driving instructor. It will help you find the fast way around the track much more quickly and fine tune your skills. You can also learn a lot from reading, watching or listening to Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets. One more tip - You can learn a lot on a wet track, so don't skip rainy days just because your lap times will be slower.

 

[ST675R]

As for the all seasons? Yeah if you can avoid even trying them on track, you're probably better for it. I'd say it could be a useful exercise to ascertain the differences and start your track journey with lower limits but... nah. Not worth it. As I mentioned, the OEM Michelins do a pretty good job and I would recommend starting there.

Moving to the other end of the spectrum, I'm planning to put A/S on my car after the OEM wear out. Mainly for the mileage difference. Will I really miss summer tires on the road?

On the street the OEM Michelins feel great but I don't think I've come anywhere close to the edge of lateral traction while playing in the mountains or on an exit ramp. I'm aggressive when sport driving, but the car feels much better than me on the street. I have felt the benefit of the OEM tires when working the LSD which is really fun.

I ran Michelin Pilot Sport A/S on my GTI when the OEM summer tires were toast after 20k miles. The A/S had very good, but not great grip. The tires communicated well, you could still keep up with much faster cars (on street) and you felt that the car was getting a proper workout. I'll be interested to see how much I miss the stickier tires on the ITS. Big difference in hp between the GTI and ITS.

I'll do at least one track night on the CMS Roval this spring while still on OEM tires. But if I'm going somewhere like VIR, I'll take the bike.

 

[optronix]

Moving to the other end of the spectrum, I'm planning to put A/S on my car after the OEM wear out. Mainly for the mileage difference. Will I really miss summer tires on the road?

On the street the OEM Michelins feel great but I don't think I've come anywhere close to the edge of lateral traction while playing in the mountains or on an exit ramp. I'm aggressive when sport driving, but the car feels much better than me on the street. I have felt the benefit of the OEM tires when working the LSD which is really fun.

I ran Michelin Pilot Sport A/S on my GTI when the OEM summer tires were toast after 20k miles. The A/S had very good, but not great grip. The tires communicated well, you could still keep up with much faster cars (on street) and you felt that the car was getting a proper workout. I'll be interested to see how much I miss the stickier tires on the ITS. Big difference in hp between the GTI and ITS.

I'll do at least one track night on the CMS Roval this spring while still on OEM tires. But if I'm going somewhere like VIR, I'll take the bike.

Yeah for non-track use I don't think you'd miss all that much by making a permanent switch to performance all seasons. I like the Continental DWS06+ I have right now, and I've had Michelin A/S4 on other cars and had much the same experience. They're good, not great, just as you say- but you probably won't notice until you're driving the car pretty hard.

I do notice an immediate difference any time I swap back to summers in the spring, and will almost certainly be looking to get a permanent set of wheels for summer/winter use- but I can see how some would just leave the A/S on year round and not really be bothered by it.

 

[bpebler]

Well, take my estimates with a grain of salt. I'm going off how long I personally would expect tires to last; could be more or less based on a variety of factors and I don't really have the vast quantities of track experience to be a primary resource, by my own admission.

As long as you’re not pushing the car VERY hard the PS4s hold up pretty well, I definitely encourage you to burn through those to save a good ~$1200 or so, especially as you're learning. You likely won't be anywhere near the point of pushing that hard when you’re first starting out anyway- but I’ve never driven a car that's just so inviting to drive on track, so it wouldn't be very surprising if it wasn't very long before your comfort level grows, and your tire budget will suffer as a result. I think you'll also find out though that a full track day can be quite exhausting; you may not WANT to go more than once a month. If you find that you do, watch out- it can be quite addicting. And that's when it gets REALLY expensive...

As for the all seasons? Yeah if you can avoid even trying them on track, you're probably better for it. I'd say it could be a useful exercise to ascertain the differences and start your track journey with lower limits but... nah. Not worth it. As I mentioned, the OEM Michelins do a pretty good job and I would recommend starting there.

200 TW tires like RE-71RS or Cup 2s are definitely an upgrade but as you can probably guess they wear even faster, and as I mentioned it will probably take you a bit to reach the limits of the PS4S. Money no object I don't really see a reason NOT to go with a 200 TW tire, but just like what I'm doing, I'm at least attempting to get the Michelins to a state where they should be replaced anyway before I move on from them. That said I'm sure someone would probably buy a solid set of gently used PS4S for a reasonable sum pretty readily, if that's a direction you may want to go to recoup some of those funds.

Anyway, you just need to get out there and get some seat time and find out how much energy, time, and money you're willing to invest in this hobby. Another recommendation is look for some sort of opportunity for instructor-led training and/or seat time in a car that isn't yours. For me, I went to the BMW Performance Center; the BMW CCA has a periodic promotion where certain chapters have greatly reduced rates, and I can't recommend something like that enough. Obviously Skip Barber school or some shit like that will run in the multiple thousand dollar range, but if you can find something like the "M Club day" like I did where I paid $750 for a full day of instructor-led seat time in factory M cars, by ALL MEANS go for it. You will accelerate your learning exponentially, AND not have to worry about wear and tear on your car...

Maybe I’ll just mount the 200TW on the Apex wheels for track only & rock the oem on the street for a while to get through the stock treads. A lot of things up in the air now that should get sorted out by spring, so that will help when it’s all over with.

My dad’s long time friend is a Porsche enthusiast & coach at our local track, so that will help exponentially - but the BMW M-Club day sounds like a must!!! I will have to do some searching & hopefully they have those near me. That sounds like an amazing deal for what you get!

 

[bpebler]

If you plan on becoming a serious track rat you should consider getting a Garmin Catalyst (ask @Zygrene how he likes his). It's much more than a lap timer/data logger/video recorder - it's an AI driving instructor. It will help you find the fast way around the track much more quickly and fine tune your skills. You can also learn a lot from reading, watching or listening to Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets. One more tip - You can learn a lot on a wet track, so don't skip rainy days just because your lap times will be slower.

Thanks for the share! I’ll absolutely be looking into getting one of these very soon!

I don’t want to skip wet days, but I also tend to push the limits too much at times. Like with everything. Maybe I should keep my coach with me on those days if possible until I get used to it.

 

[kjechel]

Thanks for the share! I’ll absolutely be looking into getting one of these very soon!

You're welcome! And check out motorsportreg.com for events near you.

 

[bpebler]

Yeah for non-track use I don't think you'd miss all that much by making a permanent switch to performance all seasons. I like the Continental DWS06+ I have right now, and I've had Michelin A/S4 on other cars and had much the same experience. They're good, not great, just as you say- but you probably won't notice until you're driving the car pretty hard.

I do notice an immediate difference any time I swap back to summers in the spring, and will almost certainly be looking to get a permanent set of wheels for summer/winter use- but I can see how some would just leave the A/S on year round and not really be bothered by it.

I think I remembered you posting in the past about not needing an alignment for this platform when downsizing wheels/going wider/both. The last vehicles I built did need an alignment when switching, but this was on the Jeep & truck platform.

Am I understanding correctly that if we have a set of dedicated track wheels and another oem set, even though wheel & tire size is way different from each other, we don’t need an alignment?

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