Sponsored
SierraOne
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2023
- Threads
- 2
- Messages
- 86
- Reaction score
- 42
- Location
- Toronto, ON
- Car(s)
- A-Spec->ITS, '24 X1, '24 Navigator, '14 LR4
Was that on the front bumper? Front bumper fitment issues have been attributed to dealers having to remove them to install addons, and so they vary by dealership (some are really good about getting them back on properly).When I drove the Demo at the dealer I found these fitment flaws in addition to mismatched paint.....disappointing!!
optronix
Senior Member
I'm starting to think that if this fitment and paint matching thing is bother people so much, they really just need to go in another direction. Frankly, I've moved past it, and it's getting pretty tiring hearing it brought up so much.
It's not exclusive to the ITS. Savagegeese mentions this specifically in his post-delivery video of his FL5.
Some of the pictures floating around are outrageously nitpicky. Sure, $50k is a lot of money. But expensive cars are not immune to panel gaps! A 2 second google search can confirm this.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1033788-new-car-panel-gaps.html
Teggy24
Member
Generally agree on the fitment/panel gap front, since a lot of examples could be a result of poor dealer work after they install accessories. But I think paint is a legitimate criticism - it seems like it could be remedied fairly easily by Acura with some additional effort, which shouldn’t be a lot to ask on a special addition car that is commanding well over $50k on the market right now. You also have to consider that an issue like this is not easily fixed by the consumer - altering factory paint absolutely tanks a car’s value.I'm starting to think that if this fitment and paint matching thing is bother people so much, they really just need to go in another direction. Frankly, I've moved past it, and it's getting pretty tiring hearing it brought up so much.
It's not exclusive to the ITS. Savagegeese mentions this specifically in his post-delivery video of his FL5.
Some of the pictures floating around are outrageously nitpicky. Sure, $50k is a lot of money. But expensive cars are not immune to panel gaps! A 2 second google search can confirm this.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1033788-new-car-panel-gaps.html
Totally understand that mismatches happen in large manufacturing processes, but it should be the exception and not the rule. I’ve yet to see a Type S without a noticeable mismatch on the bumper. It’s been apparent since pre-production models and has never been fixed. Acura should absolutely do better
Sponsored
optronix
Senior Member
What's the likelihood it's an optical illusion? That light just reflects off a bumper differently because it's a different material altogether? What's the science behind that? I swear I've never considered any of this before a thread here started calling it out rampantly.
Stare hard enough at this picture, and you'll convince yourself it's "mismatched" or whatever. The rear bumper looks like a slightly different shade than the rest of the rear quarter. Literally the first picture I clicked after searching google for "mineral white M4", figured it would be a good metric.
Here's my actual car that I owned for 3 years and never noticed anything odd at all. You guys are getting me to second guess if I was driving around looking like an idiot this whole time.
A shot of my 981, look at that awful panel gap where the fender, door, and rocker meet. The clearly mismatched paint on the front bumper, despite the distractingly orange side marker. Trash.
Garbage ass NSX at a cars and coffee, look at that panel gap! And parked in a handicap spot. Godless heathen.
I think it's all in your heads. At least it will be if you let it.
Lflouie
Senior Member
- Thread starter
- #67
The NSX example is a 30 yr old car, probably been apart more than a few times.....even when new it wasn't this bad. Carr panel gaps have improve immensely over the years, and even relatively inexpensive cars are holding tighter gaps. Unfortunately the poor placement of add on components ( ie, rear fender flair exension) and bumper to body fitment represents poor design and quality control.
Paint is difficult to match when using materials with different surface textures. Non- metallic colors, low metallic colors and darker colors with higher color saturation are easier to match in these situations. Light colors with very high metallic content (ie, silver) are usually the hardest to match. Surface angle changes at joint matches of different surfaces and even the light source also creates different visual cues....bright light tends to minimize the color differences, while broad range wave light sources and overcast days highlight them.
So why do some painted parts look so much better than others when they all came from the same paint process? The reason is the metal body panels are almost always painted at the same time using robots that spray paint from many different angles during the process. This mean that the metallic particals are randomly oriented in the entire paint, and they are all fixed in orientation one another other during the drying process where gravity uniformly affects the particals final positions.
Metallic partical orientation is critical bc they act as mini mirrors reflecting the light source hence bc they dried oriented the same way the paint looks consistent.
When bumpers and other plastic parts are painted without the same complex spray angles used while spraying the body, in fact they tend to be painted from a relatively low angle from a horizontal sprayer in auto assembly lines and they may not dry in the same (upright) orientation as the body panels. This means the metallic particals, when dried, tend to reflect light differently than the body panels, plus the material texture differences means the metallic materials (orient) themselves differently bc of the slickness (different adhesion characteristics).
So why do some mfgrs seem to have better matches? Generally it is bc they invest more time and money into the painting of plastic parts to minimize the perceived color differences between the material caused during the painting process.
You might ask yourself, why do the Acura PCM TLX cars have MUCH higher paint match quality and fit and finish than a regular TLX? Obviously Marysville knows how to match paint colors on bumpers and fenders when they make the PCM cars, even metallic colors. Why do those cars, which are claimed to be "hand built", look better?
I suspect it is bc they inspect and reset the panel gaps to tighter tolerances during the manufacturing process or post production. They most likely use a superior and better controlled painting process to ensure that the plastic parts are oriented and dry such that the metallic paint appears the same ( or extremely close) to the body panels.
So Marysville can produce high quality fit and finish cars, but they have decided that they are not capable of doing so on the normal production line, or not willing to do so.....but if you'll pay them an additional $8k on your PCM TLX they will.
Clearly mfgrs must be profitable, so mfg costs are critical to their success. A $30k generic Integra (or $40k basic TLX) has to be made accordingly. But a $52k Integra or a $62k TLX (PCM) should be getting the same final build quality, IMO.
I'm still holding out to actualky see whether the Apex blue, LCM or red ITS paint matching will be acceptable to me. Good news is many enthusiast don't notice or don't care, so they can choose any color they want and be perfectly happy. It is all in the eye (preferences) of the beholder (buyer).
Paint is difficult to match when using materials with different surface textures. Non- metallic colors, low metallic colors and darker colors with higher color saturation are easier to match in these situations. Light colors with very high metallic content (ie, silver) are usually the hardest to match. Surface angle changes at joint matches of different surfaces and even the light source also creates different visual cues....bright light tends to minimize the color differences, while broad range wave light sources and overcast days highlight them.
So why do some painted parts look so much better than others when they all came from the same paint process? The reason is the metal body panels are almost always painted at the same time using robots that spray paint from many different angles during the process. This mean that the metallic particals are randomly oriented in the entire paint, and they are all fixed in orientation one another other during the drying process where gravity uniformly affects the particals final positions.
Metallic partical orientation is critical bc they act as mini mirrors reflecting the light source hence bc they dried oriented the same way the paint looks consistent.
When bumpers and other plastic parts are painted without the same complex spray angles used while spraying the body, in fact they tend to be painted from a relatively low angle from a horizontal sprayer in auto assembly lines and they may not dry in the same (upright) orientation as the body panels. This means the metallic particals, when dried, tend to reflect light differently than the body panels, plus the material texture differences means the metallic materials (orient) themselves differently bc of the slickness (different adhesion characteristics).
So why do some mfgrs seem to have better matches? Generally it is bc they invest more time and money into the painting of plastic parts to minimize the perceived color differences between the material caused during the painting process.
You might ask yourself, why do the Acura PCM TLX cars have MUCH higher paint match quality and fit and finish than a regular TLX? Obviously Marysville knows how to match paint colors on bumpers and fenders when they make the PCM cars, even metallic colors. Why do those cars, which are claimed to be "hand built", look better?
I suspect it is bc they inspect and reset the panel gaps to tighter tolerances during the manufacturing process or post production. They most likely use a superior and better controlled painting process to ensure that the plastic parts are oriented and dry such that the metallic paint appears the same ( or extremely close) to the body panels.
So Marysville can produce high quality fit and finish cars, but they have decided that they are not capable of doing so on the normal production line, or not willing to do so.....but if you'll pay them an additional $8k on your PCM TLX they will.
Clearly mfgrs must be profitable, so mfg costs are critical to their success. A $30k generic Integra (or $40k basic TLX) has to be made accordingly. But a $52k Integra or a $62k TLX (PCM) should be getting the same final build quality, IMO.
I'm still holding out to actualky see whether the Apex blue, LCM or red ITS paint matching will be acceptable to me. Good news is many enthusiast don't notice or don't care, so they can choose any color they want and be perfectly happy. It is all in the eye (preferences) of the beholder (buyer).
Last edited:
Azkyrie6
Senior Member
To me it doesn’t matter if panel gaps are common. Many people spend to buy a car once or twice in their lives. Putting down hard earned cash people would expect qualityI'm starting to think that if this fitment and paint matching thing is bother people so much, they really just need to go in another direction. Frankly, I've moved past it, and it's getting pretty tiring hearing it brought up so much.
It's not exclusive to the ITS. Savagegeese mentions this specifically in his post-delivery video of his FL5.
Some of the pictures floating around are outrageously nitpicky. Sure, $50k is a lot of money. But expensive cars are not immune to panel gaps! A 2 second google search can confirm this.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1033788-new-car-panel-gaps.html
optronix
Senior Member
Sure... but what's your definition of "quality"?
In other words, ask the question of "who cares"? In pretty much every picture that's been shown of these panel gaps with people standing inches away from the car, the answer is probably "no one but you"!
If you can't live with it, then definitely don't spend the money on it.
Lflouie
Senior Member
- Thread starter
- #70
I find it ironic that much like today's political discourse that when someone chooses to state that their opinion is the right (correct) opinion that anything contrary to that position is obviously not part of what's " normal" and acceptable.....so obviously anyone that is not in "lock step" (differing opinion or priorities) is not part of the "acceptable" group think and should move on.
Quality must affect your own car purchasing decision, which likely influences your choice to buy exceptional quality Porsches as your own cars. However, not everyone likes every Porsche model, so if they state a fact or an opinion about a particular model that is contrary......then they should shut up and move on.
I'm not one that uses forums to force my opinion on others, but rather to share information and provide knowledge and shared experiences with other enthusiasts. For the most part I find most posters of tge same mind set....differing opinions are welcomed, shared, and left to individuals to make up their own minds. Yes there are some posts that are not factual including providing conclusions and opinions....and they are usually challenged based on the lack of facts....unfortunately they also include opinions of the poster, whether or not others agree......sounds like free speech to me, and that's a good thing.
The statement is correct....if a buyer doesn't care about something then their preceived quality has been met, but not everyone shares the same expectations on every facet of car. Some hate " rev hang", road noise, exhaust sound, suspension compliance, etc.....that's why they industry makes aftermarket parts. Everyone has a different hot button....none of them warrant not owning a car, but rather their specific expecting.
Forums are great for informing others and sharing opinions, knowledge , facts and insights, to assist buyers to make informed decisions based on their specific values and preferences.
In the case of fit and finish enthusiast are limited as to what they can plausibly change, replace or correct on a car. I'm one of those enthusiasts that places a high value on fit and finish bc it can be extremely expensive and difficult to correct. In the case of paint, any actual repaint or panel repainting can lead to diminished value at trade in when the dealer detects a repaint.
I have personally applied ppf to many of my own cars and do my own paint correction and ceramic coating. I will attend and show my cars at many C&C, take pride not only in the performance, overall design but its fit and finish. So while I may be more focused on fit and finish than some other enthusiast, many that share their own elevated levels of sxpectations on fit and finish.....my interest is to inform those enthusiasts so they can make appropriate choices.
Sponsored
Lflouie
Senior Member
- Thread starter
- #71
Attached pics are from an Alfa Romeo Guilia (which is the same paint job as on the base model 4 Dr sedan). It is black with very heavy metallic content and the bumper to upper fender joint is the same basic design concept as the Integra. (Please excuse the dirty paint bc it hasn't been washed in 2 weeks).
It is black so there is virtually no color difference, bc the saturated color helps to minimize any slight color differences that might exists. More importantly, if you'll expand the pic and closely look at the metallic content and consistency from adjacent panels and bumper you'll observe it is basically identical...or very very close.
The reason for this is that bumpers are painted with the body at the same time by the same machines and with the same paint as the other panels.
Metallic and pearlescent paints are both highly affected by the paint spray application causing variations from panel to panel.....even if the color is virtually identical.
The fender to bumper joints are neat, uniform and consistent.
Remember, except for Ferrari, Italian cars have not historically been known for great fit and finish. In the case of Alfa, they focused on improving their overall quality over the past 10 yrs. I'm not pushing Alfa or Italian cars in general ( it's my first one), but this model has exceptional fit and finish and the base level Guilia starts at only $42k.
A good quality build can be made to compete in the Integra (and TLX) segments. Not pushing Alfa, just using as an example of cars that are produced with very good quality.
Note: JD Powers just released 2022 overall quality levels and Alfa was number 3, Acura fell much further down the list.
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/06/i...-ram-and-alfa-romeo-among-top-brands-in-2023/
I have an ITS allocation and will make my purchase decision after determining if the fit and finish meets my own personal expectations.
It is black so there is virtually no color difference, bc the saturated color helps to minimize any slight color differences that might exists. More importantly, if you'll expand the pic and closely look at the metallic content and consistency from adjacent panels and bumper you'll observe it is basically identical...or very very close.
The reason for this is that bumpers are painted with the body at the same time by the same machines and with the same paint as the other panels.
Metallic and pearlescent paints are both highly affected by the paint spray application causing variations from panel to panel.....even if the color is virtually identical.
The fender to bumper joints are neat, uniform and consistent.
Remember, except for Ferrari, Italian cars have not historically been known for great fit and finish. In the case of Alfa, they focused on improving their overall quality over the past 10 yrs. I'm not pushing Alfa or Italian cars in general ( it's my first one), but this model has exceptional fit and finish and the base level Guilia starts at only $42k.
A good quality build can be made to compete in the Integra (and TLX) segments. Not pushing Alfa, just using as an example of cars that are produced with very good quality.
Note: JD Powers just released 2022 overall quality levels and Alfa was number 3, Acura fell much further down the list.
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/06/i...-ram-and-alfa-romeo-among-top-brands-in-2023/
I have an ITS allocation and will make my purchase decision after determining if the fit and finish meets my own personal expectations.
Last edited:
Azkyrie6
Senior Member
You’re absolutely right that I’ll be standing inches away from it everyday and scrutinize, yet with all these pictures I’ll still be buying the ITS, it’ll still be disappointing if I have to stare at a mismatched paint job or misaligned components.
The other person who would stand close and look at every detail is my wife, she has ocd lol
optronix
Senior Member
I actually probably agree with 90% of what you're saying. But my point is that if fit and finish is that big a deal to you, and you think that this car in particular has it worse than most other cars out there, AND you seem to be one of the most vocal commenters on this topic... then maybe this ain't the car for you!
For example. Personally, I like attending cars and coffee events. I don't like when people hover around my car. I only pay attention to nitpicky details about my car or anyone else's when I wash it, or when people actively call things out. All of this leads me to the conclusion that for me, personally, these fit and finish issues are vastly overstated and don't bother me enough for me to believe my ownership experience will be diminished.
For you, I'm not so sure man. I'm not really arguing with you- your concerns are valid. I just think you might need to reassess your true interest in owning this car.
Teggy24
Member
I’m generally not a fan of “if you don’t like it, move along” arguments, because then things never change improve.
I agree that, practically speaking, if fit & finish isn’t improved in the short term then some folks might need to decide to move on to a different car (and OP has said as much regarding his allocation).
But I don’t think it’s a futile exercise to ask for higher quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if Acura reps lurk on these chains to gauge reception. And while they certainly don’t need to make any changes in order for this car to sell, I think they do need to dial in their attention to detail if they expect to be regarded as on-par with the big guns.
So maybe this gets ignored since the type s will sell out regardless. But maybe with enough discussion the consumer side, we would see this fixed in subsequent production runs (or in a midcycle refresh)
SierraOne
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2023
- Threads
- 2
- Messages
- 86
- Reaction score
- 42
- Location
- Toronto, ON
- Car(s)
- A-Spec->ITS, '24 X1, '24 Navigator, '14 LR4
While I agree in voicing our concerns to the manufacturer, I'm skeptical in this case that any change will materialize. As was mentioned elsewhere, this is something that plagues nearly every single production model in Acura's lineup, and I'm 100% sure they are already aware of it (not to mention this also exists for Honda, and they're essentially linked). If it still hasn't been fixed yet it must be because:
a) they don't think it'll impact sales in a meaningful way just to leave it like this
b) it's too expensive to change, or introduces complexities that otherwise wouldn't exist
c) some combination of a and b (most likely).
In that case, your best bet is actually to vote with your wallet, and not buy the vehicle. As long as these cars are still being sold, Honda/Acura has no incentive to change. That being said, it seems like most people don't see this as a reason to stop buying their cars, so we're back to where we started.
Sponsored
Similar threads
