CRUMUDGEONS REVIEW CTR vs ITS -- Jason Cammisa & Derek Hyphen

[Lflouie]

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[optronix]

I'm not generally a fan of podcast-type shows, and this is why. These guys can't put a coherent thought together, at least not within the first 5 minutes. Unwatch/listenable.

I can at least get through Savagegeese or Farah when they do it. I thought I liked Camissa too. Maybe I don't lol.

 

[RUNN1N]

Skip all the way to 50:20, that's where they get into the CTR and ITS--Derek Hyphen prefers the ITS for sound and ride quality saying, "If the two cars have the same competence, why not choose the one that sounds and rides better?" Jason Cammisa essentially says, "Why would I pay $8,500 more for "meh seats" at best?". Cammisa believes the CTR looks more timeless and upscale on the inside (subjective), and proposes the CTR and ITS is a failure of product planning by Honda--(summarized) the CTR is light on sound deadening and has a quieter exhaust that you still can't hear + a more premium integrated widebody, but the ITS has extra sound deadening and a louder exhaust that you can't quite hear + less premium tacked on bodywork.

Cammisa said he can live with a CTR, but the +R mode is essentially too harsh to use. They at one point said, "So buy the Honda and put an exhaust on it and don't drive it in +R mode... but you don't get heated seats."

The funniest part for me started around 1:02:30 where Derek said he'd like to try a CTR and Jason said he'd try to get ahold of one for him to check out--Derek said he was afraid he'd want to buy one, "But how much do they cost again?". They both agreed that a CTR was "around $40,000", and don't get me wrong I'm sure either one of them could get one at MSRP (~$44k) with minimal trouble (in exchange for brand/dealership publicity, obviously), but they both essentially said, "$40,000 is kind of a lot of money." Yeah, well, try being a member of the general public that's buying the CTR at ~$60k.

It's another example of two obviously knowledgeable car people missing the key part of the buyer's equation--dealer markups. At this point, even if the CTR markups are dropping (from $20k, to $15k, to ~$10k today), the average CTR is still slightly more expensive out the door than the ITS. That would've made for a much more thoughtful dialogue, IMO.

 

[optronix]

Skip all the way to 50:20, that's where they get into the CTR and ITS--Derek Hyphen prefers the ITS for sound and ride quality saying, "If the two cars have the same competence, why not choose the one that sounds and rides better?" Jason Cammisa essentially says, "Why would I pay $8,500 more for "meh seats" at best?". Cammisa believes the CTR looks more timeless and upscale on the inside (subjective), and proposes the CTR and ITS is a failure of product planning by Honda--(summarized) the CTR is light on sound deadening and has a quieter exhaust that you still can't hear + a more premium integrated widebody, but the ITS has extra sound deadening and a louder exhaust that you can't quite hear + less premium tacked on bodywork.

Cammisa said he can live with a CTR, but the +R mode is essentially too harsh to use. They at one point said, "So buy the Honda and put an exhaust on it and don't drive it in +R mode... but you don't get heated seats."

The funniest part for me started around 1:02:30 where Derek said he'd like to try a CTR and Jason said he'd try to get ahold of one for him to check out--Derek said he was afraid he'd want to buy one, "But how much do they cost again?". They both agreed that a CTR was "around $40,000", and don't get me wrong I'm sure either one of them could get one at MSRP (~$44k) with minimal trouble (in exchange for brand/dealership publicity, obviously), but they both essentially said, "$40,000 is kind of a lot of money." Yeah, well, try being a member of the general public that's buying the CTR at ~$60k.

It's another example of two obviously knowledgeable car people missing the key part of the buyer's equation--dealer markups. At this point, even if the CTR markups are dropping (from $20k, to $15k, to ~$10k today), the average CTR is still slightly more expensive out the door than the ITS. That would've made for a much more thoughtful dialogue, IMO.

Perfect. Thanks for the breakdown- and very glad I didn't spend any more time than I did listening.

It is amazing sometimes, and maybe it's perspective that does it- but it's yet another example of YouTube personalities completely disregarding reality when yammering on about their talking points.

Yeah... maybe I don't like Cammisa. I disagree with basically everything he says about these cars, and it goes deeper than subjective differences on aesthetics. Saying "bad product planning"... being as "in touch" with the enthusiast wavelength as I've seen him be sometimes, how can he not recognize that there is a pretty substantial demographic that wants a manual sedan with nearly perfect driving dynamics, but doesn't want a Honda product? As appealing as the CTR is to us- true enthusiasts who come to message boards to talk about cars- it will go wholly unnoticed by the general public. I promise you 9 out of 10 people could care less about a Civic Type R. But an Integra Type S elicits a whole different response. Yes, it looks like many other Acura products- but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I've noticed for some time that Acura's design language has dramatically improved in recent years. The thing has some serious curb appeal. A Type R is just... a Civic with a wing. 99% of people won't even notice the "premium integrated widebody"... but they'll notice the aesthetics of the Type S. I've already seen it, and I've owned my car for 6 days. It's tough to argue against the ITS having a far more premium presence. And people will gladly pay "$8500" for that... but then comes the reality check that you still can't find a CTR for "around $40,000".

I did sort of like his NSX documentary though, but man- this is a tough one to digest.

 

[Hakmamba]

I watched the whole thing, TLDR I think Cammissa is just annoying af, i've already unsub and removed any thing related to his feed. He's the typical backhanded "Having said that" guy. I already didn't like his take on the NSX, then he poo poo on it again in this vid having said that im glad he thinks its beautiful. Anyways the other guy doesn't seems like he knows jack, he didn't even know what mode he was in his "limited time" with the car. Subjective vs objective...having said that I'm a JDM, NSX Honda fanboi..... Id rather watch Savagegeese all day

 

[Bzal1122]

These cars are both expensive though for a Fwd. Even at MSRP they are. Higher than they should be. I hope the people paying mark ups stop because it’s killing the market. With that said …. The video was a shit show. And Derek … whoever the f he is , interrupted too many times .

 

[ZeroGSR]

It was nothing but endless silly hot takes and him trying to sound edgy. When he started bashing the S2000 I just FFWD realizing this guy is useless. Which is too bad, I really like most of the Hagerty videos, although even the Corolla GR one had some weird toxicity to it that I didn't like. This just brought it to the surface.

As for his opinions, they are opinions. I wouldn't get too hung up on it. I did find it funny that he said the GTI doesn't have wheel hop issues because you can install a dogbone insert.... Or just get the CTR and change the exhaust. Because, you know, you can't put racing seats in an Integra or a rear motor mount on either of them...

I get that the CTR is special, although I roll my eyes anytime I hear it now, because it's mostly used as a way to put the Integra down. That said, I want to point something out. Mr. Alpha Male only wants the CTR because it's more raw and track focused, but Mr. Alpha Male drives around in comfort mode because +R is too bumpy for him. That make me chuckle a bit, nothing but posers. And don't get me wrong, I am all for a comfortable daily, but then why not choose the car with the softer suspension?? Oh right, you want to look tough, got it.

Anyway, go watch the NSX video he did, and watch the part where he shows how great the non-power steering in it is. Too bad the car he was in had power steering

 

[Ministry]

Wow that was complete utter trash and an hour of my life I'll never get back...

 

[Integra23]

Wow that was complete utter trash and an hour of my life I'll never get back...

Lol. There is a fast fwd button for a reason.

 

[VtecBuddy]

Yeah, well, try being a member of the general public that's buying the CTR at ~$60k.

It's another example of two obviously knowledgeable car people missing the key part of the buyer's equation--dealer markups. At this point, even if the CTR markups are dropping (from $20k, to $15k, to ~$10k today), the average CTR is still slightly more expensive out the door than the ITS. That would've made for a much more thoughtful dialogue, IMO.

I've been following the "what did you pay for your FL5" thread on civicxi, and it looks like markups are dropping pretty consistently. In the last few weeks people have been getting cars at 4-6k markups (some even at MSRP).

 

[VtecBuddy]

Which is too bad, I really like most of the Hagerty videos, although even the Corolla GR one had some weird toxicity to it that I didn't like. This just brought it to the surface.

I used to enjoy the Hagerty videos a lot too, but it was really strange that they tested a GR Yaris with open diffs against the Morizo Corolla. Almost nobody is going to buy a GR Yaris with open diffs, and pretty much nobody is going to get their hands on the Morizo edition either. I think a regular CTR vs GR Corolla circuit video would have been a lot more useful to 99% of people.

 

[ZeroGSR]

I used to enjoy the Hagerty videos a lot too, but it was really strange that they tested a GR Yaris with open diffs against the Morizo Corolla. Almost nobody is going to buy a GR Yaris with open diffs, and pretty much nobody is going to get their hands on the Morizo edition either. I think a regular CTR vs GR Corolla circuit video would have been a lot more useful to 99% of people.

They tested the Morizo against the CTR and the CTR was faster, but they tried their best to downplay that part. Was almost an after thought, as clearly it was designed as a CGR review, not a true comparo. I wonder how many of the 200 Morizos went to auto journalists, as every comparo seems to magically have one! I guess the FK8 LE got a lot of comparos also with no availability, so it is what it is.

 

[Patio208]

I typically enjoy Camissa's sense of humor, not so much in the podcast format though. I can see how he might rub some the wrong way. He is a bit contrarian, that's his brand.

 

[optronix]

I typically enjoy Camissa's sense of humor, not so much in the podcast format though. I can see how he might rub some the wrong way. He is a bit contrarian, that's his brand.

Exactly. In small doses it's tolerable. As a podcast it just assaults the senses and is like nails on a chalkboard.

Never again!

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