In The Market for ITS

[SlippyFist]

Yeah... the Si "feeling" as fast... I don't know how to react to that other than to simply disagree. My son has a 2012 Si for reference.

i think the best way to describe this is that when you look at how much more hp/torque the ITS has, there is an expectation to how much faster it will "feel", and in my opinion it falls a bit short. i won't mention the fact that it also cost $30K more lol but i will concede that my expectations were not properly tempered due to my inexperience. again, i like the car, it's fantastic to drive, i just expected it to be a bit faster than it is.

Is your foot all the way down?

well not really. i've floored it once or twice but the car gets really bad wheel spin in 1st->2nd gear. i would assume its just me because i'm a terrible driver, but i've seen other people mention it as well. plus, while my Si never got this (coincidentally running the same tires) it would get a thing where if you tried to shift it real fast at redline, the clutch delay valve would prevent the gate (i don't know what to call it) from opening so you physically couldn't put the knob in gear, even with the clutch all the way down to the floor, forcing you to grind the transmission for a second. that subconsciously conditioned me to sorta "hang back" when driving real hard.

Kidding aside, I suppose to a typical driver who isn't really doing anything special with the car other than normal commuter stuff, the driving experience wouldn't really be mind-blowingly different from the Si. In all honesty, an Si is a better pick for someone like that...

But get it out on a good back road and the difference is very, very clear.

i wish i had some good back roads to drive it on; there are some around but they're 1 lane and in an area with too many people so you always get stuck behind some asshole barely going the speed limit the car really shines in the city though where you don't really need to get up real high in the RPMs; the low end torque/power is so much better than what i'm used to.

Edit 2: done hijacking this thread, lol.

yeah same i didn't mean to turn this into an ITS vs Si argument, i was just expressing my opinion based on him saying that he's sometimes disappointed with a 550hp M4 lol. i was actually on the fence about getting the ITS or a M340xi, that thing is a beast but i felt that the ITS (being a CTR derivative) is a more "special" car than a generic 3 series that looks like every other BMW from its generation

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[ABPDE5]

well not really. i've floored it once or twice but the car gets really bad wheel spin in 1st->2nd gear. i would assume its just me because i'm a terrible driver, but i've seen other people mention it as well.

This is why 0-60 times are an ineffective metric for FWD cars. They cannot put power down from a stop. The wheel spin might have been less evident in your 9th gen because it made substantially less power / torque. Simply put, these cars were not designed to be effective from a dig.Trying to put power down in first is a fool's errand.

On the other hand, an M340i xDrive will excel at this. Not only do you get AWD, but you also get the benefit of instant low-end torque from the hybrid setup.

Having said that, the ITS has a similar power:weight ratio and will be approximately just as quick once you're able to put power down. Note the 340i xDrive is 1.5s quicker 0-60... and still only 1.5s quicker in the 1/4 mile. It takes its advantage on the ITS at the start, and from there, they're more or less equal.

If you enjoy driving in quick bursts from stoplights, etc., you may want to consider RWD or AWD platforms in the future, as they are far, far better suited for that scenario.

 

[Jay_K]

I paid MSRP for the ITS without any games. It was welcomed and refreshing to see. Especially since I live in an area that is notoriously difficult to purchase vehicles at a reasonable price. I normally have to travel to find a deal. I drove a few hours away to a different state for the FK8 and about 5 hours across the state for the MK7.5 Golf R.

On top of the msrp deal - I got an extremely reasonable offer for my trade. I saw the value of my G42 M240 plummeting by the week as local dealers continued to discount inventory, so I felt like I got out just in time to capture max trade value.

It seems that many Acura dealers are willing to sell the Type S at MSRP. I bet it wouldn't be too difficult to find one with a little leg work.

 

[optronix]

Note the 340i xDrive is 1.5s quicker 0-60... and still only 1.5s quicker in the 1/4 mile. It takes its advantage on the ITS at the start, and from there, they're more or less equal.

This was truly shocking to me. I had no idea a 340i was a low 12 second car. W.T.F.

Still not a contest, I'll take the ITS all day every day.

 

[alvinmpower]

A lot of fun don't come from car being real world fast. 0-60 in a Mercedes S class might be 5 second but you barely feel the acceleration. In the other hand, 0-60 in a FK8 Type R is about 5.5 second and that car felt like a rocket accelerating. I had a friend with FK8 Type R took me on a quick drive around the block and that thing feels fast. I think feel fast is more important than actually going fast. My M4 does no feel as fast as my 440i at low speed due to rwd can't put power down as efficient as awd. 60-120 M4 definitely faster, that's where the M4 accelerate at, top end speed. When I test drove the A-spec I did not think the car is fast at all, the power is not nearly as brutal as FK8 Type R. I just thought it was a fun car to toss around with a manual.

Two dealer "around" me, one is one and a half hour away, the other one is two, both are selling these at MSRP. One got a demo car with all the accessories with MSRP at 64k is discounted to 57k. Not sure what I'm doing yet but I'm not in a hurry.

This was truly shocking to me. I had no idea a 340i was a low 12 second car. W.T.F.

Still not a contest, I'll take the ITS all day every day.

M340i is tested 0-60 at 3.8s instead of advertised 4.1s by BMW, 1/4 mile at 12.2 second. M240i being smaller is tested at 3.6s to 60 from factory. With a quick tune you probably looking at mid 3s to 60 and mid 11 1/4 miles for the m340i. The new M3 with Xdrive 0-60 is 3.4s advertised, but people are running 2.9-3.1 stock.

This just tell you how fast cars are becoming these days, being fast is nothing special anymore. Better driving experience like a high reving NA with a manual is truly one of it's kind. That's why I always keep an eye out for the 981 Cayman GTS. These cars are selling just under MSRP from 10 years ago, can't even find many of them.

 

[ABPDE5]

This was truly shocking to me. I had no idea a 340i was a low 12 second car. W.T.F.

Still not a contest, I'll take the ITS all day every day.

Same. But (as you know better than most, based on your car ownership history), it all depends on what you are looking for in a car. Most want a luxurious missile and could care less for dynamics (frankly, the average car buyer probably wants to be insulated from dynamics), hence that's where we're seeing the market go. Imo, if that's your goal, you are on the right track w. the compact performance SUV target. There's hardly a point to a sedan / coupe if it doesn't give you better dynamics, isn't much quicker, and weighs 4k lbs or more.

340i xDrive is 70k, anyway. Not exactly ITS money.

 

[ABPDE5]

A lot of fun don't come from car being real world fast. 0-60 in a Mercedes S class might be 5 second but you barely feel the acceleration. In the other hand, 0-60 in a FK8 Type R is about 5.5 second and that car felt like a rocket accelerating. I had a friend with FK8 Type R took me on a quick drive around the block and that thing feels fast. I think feel fast is more important than actually going fast. My M4 does no feel as fast as my 440i at low speed due to rwd can't put power down as efficient as awd. 60-120 M4 definitely faster, that's where the M4 accelerate at, top end speed. When I test drove the A-spec I did not think the car is fast at all, the power is not nearly as brutal as FK8 Type R. I just thought it was a fun car to toss around with a manual.

Two dealer "around" me, one is one and a half hour away, the other one is two, both are selling these at MSRP. One got a demo car with all the accessories with MSRP at 64k is discounted to 57k. Not sure what I'm doing yet but I'm not in a hurry.


M340i is tested 0-60 at 3.8s instead of advertised 4.1s by BMW, 1/4 mile at 12.2 second. M240i being smaller is tested at 3.6s to 60 from factory. With a quick tune you probably looking at mid 3s to 60 and mid 11 1/4 miles for the m340i. The new M3 with Xdrive 0-60 is 3.4s advertised, but people are running 2.9-3.1 stock.

This just tell you how fast cars are becoming these days, being fast is nothing special anymore. Better driving experience like a high reving NA with a manual is truly one of it's kind. That's why I always keep an eye out for the 981 Cayman GTS. These cars are selling just under MSRP from 10 years ago, can't even find many of them.

I actually had my heart set in a 981 CS before going the ITS route. The 981 didn't give me the input feel I wanted (still an awesome car, though). Porsche's EPS has come a long way in a short time. I've recently been stalking 987.2 base Caymans... would be a fun barebones RWD to supplement the ITS with, and you get a hydraulic rack and the updated, IMS-issue-free NA motor. Quite a throwback car.

To be clear: ITS does not leave me wanting, just think it would be cool to have an analog, M/R in the garage some day.

 

[Paul911]

(first post here, be gentle)

I'm currently shopping for an ITS as my daily driver. My last DD was a 2016 VW Golf R which I sold at the peak of the used car buying frenzy. It was great as a DD and I miss it in many ways, but it was also a VW which was just out of warranty. I like to keep cars for a long time and that's why I'm looking at a Honda product. If anyone is considering a VW, I'll list out what went wrong with mine.

As for the ITS, I did get a short (2-3 mile) test drive in one and I liked it a lot. Handling is excellent, brakes are excellent and comfort is fine. I'd say ride was as good as the VW and handling was better. I wish the front seats had an extending thigh support and the passenger seat at least had a manual height adjustment. I also wish the Civic Type R had heated seats and the additional sound insulation because I'd buy that instead.

 

[SilverRocket]

(first post here, be gentle)

I'm currently shopping for an ITS as my daily driver. My last DD was a 2016 VW Golf R which I sold at the peak of the used car buying frenzy. It was great as a DD and I miss it in many ways, but it was also a VW which was just out of warranty. I like to keep cars for a long time and that's why I'm looking at a Honda product. If anyone is considering a VW, I'll list out what went wrong with mine.

As for the ITS, I did get a short (2-3 mile) test drive in one and I liked it a lot. Handling is excellent, brakes are excellent and comfort is fine. I'd say ride was as good as the VW and handling was better. I wish the front seats had an extending thigh support and the passenger seat at least had a manual height adjustment. I also wish the Civic Type R had heated seats and the additional sound insulation because I'd buy that instead.

I'm super curious. You hear both side of the coin, "Oh my Euro car never broke on me, it's bullet proof" and then the other side, full,full,full of little gremlins that are just annoying and are hard to diagnose and/or a fortune to fix. I tend to think it's more the latter and that the people don't have problems only because they've paid an arm and leg in preventive maintenance.

Honda and Acura have definitely slipped as of late, just look at the steering rack issues and coolant tank cracking but I still think they and Toyota/Lexus lead the way in terms of reliability and more importantly, they are inexpensive in terms of standard maintenance to keep them on the road.

 

[optronix]

A lot of fun don't come from car being real world fast. 0-60 in a Mercedes S class might be 5 second but you barely feel the acceleration. In the other hand, 0-60 in a FK8 Type R is about 5.5 second and that car felt like a rocket accelerating. I had a friend with FK8 Type R took me on a quick drive around the block and that thing feels fast. I think feel fast is more important than actually going fast. My M4 does no feel as fast as my 440i at low speed due to rwd can't put power down as efficient as awd. 60-120 M4 definitely faster, that's where the M4 accelerate at, top end speed. When I test drove the A-spec I did not think the car is fast at all, the power is not nearly as brutal as FK8 Type R. I just thought it was a fun car to toss around with a manual.

Two dealer "around" me, one is one and a half hour away, the other one is two, both are selling these at MSRP. One got a demo car with all the accessories with MSRP at 64k is discounted to 57k. Not sure what I'm doing yet but I'm not in a hurry.


M340i is tested 0-60 at 3.8s instead of advertised 4.1s by BMW, 1/4 mile at 12.2 second. M240i being smaller is tested at 3.6s to 60 from factory. With a quick tune you probably looking at mid 3s to 60 and mid 11 1/4 miles for the m340i. The new M3 with Xdrive 0-60 is 3.4s advertised, but people are running 2.9-3.1 stock.

This just tell you how fast cars are becoming these days, being fast is nothing special anymore. Better driving experience like a high reving NA with a manual is truly one of it's kind. That's why I always keep an eye out for the 981 Cayman GTS. These cars are selling just under MSRP from 10 years ago, can't even find many of them.

It was a truly great car (even better with the clear turn signals I put on probably a week after this photo was taken ). It was what I replaced my M4 with, after I realized that big power didn't equate to "fun". Optioned to the hilt, except for one important exception- PTV. But it was a GREAT car. Looking back, I should have kept it- but I was always uncomfortable with the miles it had on it (bought it at ~47k miles). As you say they're very, very difficult to find today, although the only thing you're truly missing with a GTS vs an S is the front bumper styling and the optional GTS interior package; otherwise all the rest of the options were available on the S. The GTS had some sort of mechanical "sound symposer" that did make a noticeable audible difference inside the cabin, but these cars already sound great enough as it is.

Also worth mentioning, I was locked in on a Cayman too but learned that dynamically there is no difference from the Boxster (some tracks may outright not allow convertibles but most just ask to pass the "broomstick test"). I believe that the Porsche mid-engine cars are the only ones that can actually advertise this... anyway, they were nearly impossible to find back in 2016 when I was looking too so this helped open up the options a bit. I've owned two Boxsters since, and will probably own another one someday unless I get something like a F430 Spyder. Never thought I'd be a convertible guy but I am now.

I'm super curious. You hear both side of the coin, "Oh my Euro car never broke on me, it's bullet proof" and then the other side, full,full,full of little gremlins that are just annoying and are hard to diagnose and/or a fortune to fix. I tend to think it's more the latter and that the people don't have problems only because they've paid an arm and leg in preventive maintenance.

Honda and Acura have definitely slipped as of late, just look at the steering rack issues and coolant tank cracking but I still think they and Toyota/Lexus lead the way in terms of reliability and more importantly, they are inexpensive in terms of standard maintenance to keep them on the road.

My experience has been hit or miss; generally the cars are wonderful until you hit the end of the warranty period, and then it sort of "depends". A BMW E36 for example is a world-class piece of shit, as an example any BMW CCA track event will mandate that the radiator has been replaced or you're not allowed on track lol. Also countless issues from subframes, ball joints, the entire cooling system to weird issues with the stereo and headliners universally falling down. They suck.

An E92 335i I had wasn't so bad, but I did have to replace the water pump and the high-pressure fuel pump was covered under warranty long after the original expired, because of a class-action lawsuit if I recall correctly. All in all only about a $400 investment in repairs and that car had ~80k miles on it when I traded it in.

The worst issue I've ever had in a Porsche was a faulty fan motor in that 981 above. It blew continuously even with the ignition off and key out of the vehicle until I pulled a fuse. It was covered under CPO warranty, but would have only been a $180 part, and was accessible without taking the dash apart.

 

[Paul911]

I'm super curious. You hear both side of the coin, "Oh my Euro car never broke on me, it's bullet proof" and then the other side, full,full,full of little gremlins that are just annoying and are hard to diagnose and/or a fortune to fix. I tend to think it's more the latter and that the people don't have problems only because they've paid an arm and leg in preventive maintenance.

Honda and Acura have definitely slipped as of late, just look at the steering rack issues and coolant tank cracking but I still think they and Toyota/Lexus lead the way in terms of reliability and more importantly, they are inexpensive in terms of standard maintenance to keep them on the road.

First, for German cars, I've also owned a B5 Audi A4, B5 VW Passat and own an '86 911. The 911 doesn't count since it cant' really be expected to be a reliable daily driver like a modern car. As for the R, problems were:

• main prop shaft replaced at 30k (I drove the car like a full fledged adult)
• shim plate between engine and transmission replaced due to rust build up interfering with flywheel
• a body plug was left out from the factory. This allowed mice to get into the car and wreak a fair bit of havoc.
• At 60k, It was starting to make a noise that sounded like the one that led to the prop shaft replacement. I sold it a 5k later for 70% of what I paid and I think I hit the peak of the market.

Except for maybe Porsche, there's no way the German brands are as reliable as Honda overall, much less Toyota. The A4 I had was a complete PITA.

 

[SilverRocket]

First, for German cars, I've also owned a B5 Audi A4, B5 VW Passat and own an '86 911. The 911 doesn't count since it cant' really be expected to be a reliable daily driver like a modern car. As for the R, problems were:

• main prop shaft replaced at 30k (I drove the car like a full fledged adult)
• shim plate between engine and transmission replaced due to rust build up interfering with flywheel
• a body plug was left out from the factory. This allowed mice to get into the car and wreak a fair bit of havoc.
• At 60k, It was starting to make a noise that sounded like the one that led to the prop shaft replacement. I sold it a 5k later for 70% of what I paid and I think I hit the peak of the market.

Except for maybe Porsche, there's no way the German brands are as reliable as Honda overall, much less Toyota. The A4 I had was a complete PITA.

I didn't expect that much that soon.

My bias come from family experience. Personally I've owned 2 Civic over a total of 14 years and my extended family has owned (owns) another 4 of them. 3 of them were >10 years old, one of those was 20 years old and the 4th is a 2019 so it'll probably be in the family for at least another 5-10 years.

Meanwhile my brother decided to take the leap and leased an A4 which rolled off the lot with a sensor failure. Took him over a year to get Audi to fix it. He has a year left on the lease and the mechanic that we've known forever told him to not even dream of buying out the lease "unless he wanted to become best buddies".

I'll be the first to admit the average German vehicle is much better than a similarly priced Japanese one, but only within the warranty period as pointed out by pretty much everyone who's honest about it.

For those who want long term cars, the Japanese brands have the market cornered and that's where i feel people fail to see value in cars like the Integra. $50k is peanuts when you figure *knock on wood* it should do 10 years/ 150k miles on a relative shoestring budget. Take a $50k Audi or BWM, I would expect the difference in running costs by that time would easily eclipse $10k, so really you need to be comparing a $40k BMW to a $50k Acura and that's where the ITS wipes the floor.

Anyway, that's just my hot take on the matter.

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