Back on Track

[Victorofhavoc]

Got the Alcantara wheel on. The factory bolt was tightened down way beyond torque spec. I almost broke a 10mm Allen socket trying to get it out. I did break that same Allen head socket on the way in, but thankfully given my German car ownership history I have a ton of torx and triple square around, and it just so happens that all the corners of a 10mm Allen line up with the points of a t55 torx spline.

Super easy install, didn't even need to add felt tape coming back together.

If you plan to do this, I recommend marking off the wheel plastic back against the column plastic with blue tape and cutting it, that way you can align it to the same position later. There are three airbag release clips, one on each side and one off to the bottom left, and an Allen head is about the best thing to press it down with. A small flathead would slip around the springs a ton and be annoying.

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[Victorofhavoc]

Well this was easy. Free camber. We'll see what it looks like when I get it to my mechanic!

 

[optronix]

Well this was easy. Free camber. We'll see what it looks like when I get it to my mechanic!

I was going to do this but the shop that mounted my tires talked me out of it. They're a tuner shop and work on all sorts of performance cars and the guy had never heard of pulling strut tower pins to get extra camber before, and insisted it could be a safety issue and to get actual camber bolts if I wanted more camber.

It is literally just a pin used to align the strut during install? Is it exclusive to Honda/Acura?

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I was going to do this but the shop that mounted my tires talked me out of it. They're a tuner shop and work on all sorts of performance cars and the guy had never heard of pulling strut tower pins to get extra camber before, and insisted it could be a safety issue and to get actual camber bolts if I wanted more camber.

It is literally just a pin used to align the strut during install? Is it exclusive to Honda/Acura?

It's definitely not unique to Honda. I know some bimmer used it as well.

I don't see how they could even suggest it's a safety issue considering the pin does not hold in any direction, and comes right out. When the car is sitting on the ground the strut nuts apply only some slight horizontal forces, but nothing vertical since gravity keeps the strut top pressed against the metal strut seat. The pin does nothing here since it could easily be wiggled out. With the wheel hanging, the strut nuts hold the weight of the wheel and suspension assembly, and again the pin does nothing.

The strut pins are used to ensure a specific factory alignment on camber and to allow for greater machining/assembly tolerance without having to do a camber adjustment on every car. I believe even the Honda manual for the suspension has a procedure for removing the pins to correct camber issues.

It's also not uncommon for people to slot strut bolt holes themselves for added camber in track applications. As long as the new hole doesn't exceed the size of the strut nut, then you're totally fine.

 

[optronix]

It's definitely not unique to Honda. I know some bimmer used it as well.

I don't see how they could even suggest it's a safety issue considering the pin does not hold in any direction, and comes right out. When the car is sitting on the ground the strut nuts apply only some slight horizontal forces, but nothing vertical since gravity keeps the strut top pressed against the metal strut seat. The pin does nothing here since it could easily be wiggled out. With the wheel hanging, the strut nuts hold the weight of the wheel and suspension assembly, and again the pin does nothing.

The strut pins are used to ensure a specific factory alignment on camber and to allow for greater machining/assembly tolerance without having to do a camber adjustment on every car. I believe even the Honda manual for the suspension has a procedure for removing the pins to correct camber issues.

It's also not uncommon for people to slot strut bolt holes themselves for added camber in track applications. As long as the new hole doesn't exceed the size of the strut nut, then you're totally fine.

Yeah I knew it was a stretch. Maybe I need to find another shop...

Sad, because they didn't ruin my wheels mounting the tires and they're right down the street.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Yeah I knew it was a stretch. Maybe I need to find another shop...

Sad, because they didn't ruin my wheels mounting the tires and they're right down the street.

I never let a "tuner shop" touch anything suspension or electrical on my cars. I've known a lot of shops recommending and doing things that concern me. I look for race shops that build cars and are actually approved to check cars by certain race organizations like NASA, IMSA, or FIA. Those shops usually won't BS you and will tell you honestly when an aftermarket part is lower quality or poor fitment. (hint - that's about 98% of the time with the aftermarket)

Dealing with race shops and personal experience is the reason I avoid so many aftermarket parts and certain brands like whiteline, 034, and ground control.

I'd recommend looking up some race organizations in your area, like NASA or SCCA, and then asking them or finding online what local shops they support in your area. They'll happily give you references.

 

[optronix]

I never let a "tuner shop" touch anything suspension or electrical on my cars. I've known a lot of shops recommending and doing things that concern me. I look for race shops that build cars and are actually approved to check cars by certain race organizations like NASA, IMSA, or FIA. Those shops usually won't BS you and will tell you honestly when an aftermarket part is lower quality or poor fitment. (hint - that's about 98% of the time with the aftermarket)

Dealing with race shops and personal experience is the reason I avoid so many aftermarket parts and certain brands like whiteline, 034, and ground control.

I'd recommend looking up some race organizations in your area, like NASA or SCCA, and then asking them or finding online what local shops they support in your area. They'll happily give you references.

Yeah I get that. But I'm not building a race car. This shop is reputable and has a strong following but no, they don't build race cars (their customers race their cars; does that count?).

Anyway, I was hoping to just have an option when I didn't want/wasn't able to do something myself... like install coilovers or an intake if I get lazy, but the whole camber pin thing does feel like I may have to keep looking.

But that said I've had the opposite experience with "race shops" too. I've dealt with two in my area, I'll call out TPC Racing by name because I've had wonderful experiences with them- but only under the context of Porsche. They won't even talk to you for anything else and I can't blame them; they are completely specialized.

Another shop I can't recall the name but I wasn't impressed. Despite all the trophies and decals and race cars in the garage, if you weren't there to try to compete in NASA or IMSA, they didn't really have much to do with you. And they were out of business a year later... or moved maybe, didn't care to research.

If I want anything more than a coilover install, I'll head to a race shop. But it isn't that serious for me at this point. I just need a reliable place that can perform an install or do an alignment that is at least familiar with aftermarket parts and their usage. If they happen to have a proven track record building race cars? Great! But if I have to drive to Pennsylvania or Northern Virginia, that introduces a shitload of logistics that have to be justified... and that's assuming I find a reputable shop. Thought I did this last time...

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Yeah I get that. But I'm not building a race car. This shop is reputable and has a strong following but no, they don't build race cars (their customers race their cars; does that count?).

Anyway, I was hoping to just have an option when I didn't want/wasn't able to do something myself... like install coilovers or an intake if I get lazy, but the whole camber pin thing does feel like I may have to keep looking.

But that said I've had the opposite experience with "race shops" too. I've dealt with two in my area, I'll call out TPC Racing by name because I've had wonderful experiences with them- but only under the context of Porsche. They won't even talk to you for anything else and I can't blame them; they are completely specialized.

Another shop I can't recall the name but I wasn't impressed. Despite all the trophies and decals and race cars in the garage, if you weren't there to try to compete in NASA or IMSA, they didn't really have much to do with you. And they were out of business a year later... or moved maybe, didn't care to research.

If I want anything more than a coilover install, I'll head to a race shop. But it isn't that serious for me at this point. I just need a reliable place that can perform an install or do an alignment that is at least familiar with aftermarket parts and their usage. If they happen to have a proven track record building race cars? Great! But if I have to drive to Pennsylvania or Northern Virginia, that introduces a shitload of logistics that have to be justified... and that's assuming I find a reputable shop. Thought I did this last time...

Yeah I totally get that! I have the same kind of mindset typically. I agree not all race shops are created equal, which is why I suggest finding them through an organization and not Google. I agree though that having a decent shop for small stuff around would be great.

I used to go to a nearby tireshop for mount balance and alignments, but in the past couple years every car I've given them has come back with a 3 degree angle to the steering wheel. Given it's happened on 4 cars, I bet their rack is off. I tried to talk to them about it and they just got dismissive, so I stopped using them. Alignments aren't hard, so I don't know why so many shops are so bad at it. Then again mounting and balancing tires is easy too, and I've seen way too many wheels with weights in more than one place and a ton of weights.

I hope you find a good shop you can trust nearby!

 

[optronix]

Yeah I totally get that! I have the same kind of mindset typically. I agree not all race shops are created equal, which is why I suggest finding them through an organization and not Google. I agree though that having a decent shop for small stuff around would be great.

I used to go to a nearby tireshop for mount balance and alignments, but in the past couple years every car I've given them has come back with a 3 degree angle to the steering wheel. Given it's happened on 4 cars, I bet their rack is off. I tried to talk to them about it and they just got dismissive, so I stopped using them. Alignments aren't hard, so I don't know why so many shops are so bad at it. Then again mounting and balancing tires is easy too, and I've seen way too many wheels with weights in more than one place and a ton of weights.

I hope you find a good shop you can trust nearby!

Exactly. This shop did actually do a great job on my wheels; no way in hell was I taking it to my local Acura dealer, where they've already destroyed two tires (that, in fairness, they did replace on their dime) on the OEM wheels! Not letting them touch my forged Apex's... and this shop mounted them unscathed.

They also have come highly recommended by several people I've encountered "in the wild", and I know they're at least capable of building G80 M3s and Supras that eclipse the 600+whp mark (one of them they had told me was over 1200...), so I feel like they probably know what they're doing for the scope of work that they do on a routine basis. But... the weird dismissal about the camber pins did turn me off! Enough to prompt me to post in here as a reaction to your post... because I asked them to do it and got the response noted above; never heard of that approach, could be a safety issue.

The search continues....

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Exactly. This shop did actually do a great job on my wheels; no way in hell was I taking it to my local Acura dealer, where they've already destroyed two tires (that, in fairness, they did replace on their dime) on the OEM wheels! Not letting them touch my forged Apex's... and this shop mounted them unscathed.

They also have come highly recommended by several people I've encountered "in the wild", and I know they're at least capable of building G80 M3s and Supras that eclipse the 600+whp mark (one of them they had told me was over 1200...), so I feel like they probably know what they're doing for the scope of work that they do on a routine basis. But... the weird dismissal about the camber pins did turn me off! Enough to prompt me to post in here as a reaction to your post... because I asked them to do it and got the response noted above; never heard of that approach, could be a safety issue.

The search continues....

The pins were SUPER easy to remove. I just used an old nut from the lower arm strut pinch bolt on my gti and intentionally cross threaded it onto the pin. It wasn't the same thread but it was what I had available in my junk drawer so why not?!?

You can also just grab a set of nicer vice grips and clamp down hard on it, then wiggle and pull. Pretend you're a dentist pulling teeth. Loosen the strut nuts slowly and it will slip/slam into place. It will toe you out, but there's factory toe in, so it won't become undrivable or anything. Then just take it to a shop and have them align toe to 0 or slight toe in depending on what kind of turn in you're looking for.

I haven't loosened mine because I want a true before check on a rack. I'm pretty confident factory alignment is not in great shape and acura service manager rolled his eyes at me in disbelief that "a new car would be off on alignment". It might be a tad petty, but I'll show him the proof, .


Also, I picked up my spoiler, mirror caps, and Alcantara wheel last weekend to avoid the service department and just do it myself. I noticed when they installed the black badges they pulled plastic with a metal pick instead of plastic, and given the condition of the paint from them I just don't want them touching anything unless it's truly necessary. They're refunding me the labor at 700$, which would imply the parts summed up to 860$ their cost. The steering wheel and mirror caps took me about an hour total. I assume the spoiler will be about an hour as well, but I'll add some kilmatt and felt tape to the hatch in the process so maybe longer.

 

[optronix]

The pins were SUPER easy to remove. I just used an old nut from the lower arm strut pinch bolt on my gti and intentionally cross threaded it onto the pin. It wasn't the same thread but it was what I had available in my junk drawer so why not?!?

You can also just grab a set of nicer vice grips and clamp down hard on it, then wiggle and pull. Pretend you're a dentist pulling teeth. Loosen the strut nuts slowly and it will slip/slam into place. It will toe you out, but there's factory toe in, so it won't become undrivable or anything. Then just take it to a shop and have them align toe to 0 or slight toe in depending on what kind of turn in you're looking for.

I haven't loosened mine because I want a true before check on a rack. I'm pretty confident factory alignment is not in great shape and acura service manager rolled his eyes at me in disbelief that "a new car would be off on alignment". It might be a tad petty, but I'll show him the proof, .


Also, I picked up my spoiler, mirror caps, and Alcantara wheel last weekend to avoid the service department and just do it myself. I noticed when they installed the black badges they pulled plastic with a metal pick instead of plastic, and given the condition of the paint from them I just don't want them touching anything unless it's truly necessary. They're refunding me the labor at 700$, which would imply the parts summed up to 860$ their cost. The steering wheel and mirror caps took me about an hour total. I assume the spoiler will be about an hour as well, but I'll add some kilmatt and felt tape to the hatch in the process so maybe longer.

Yeah you just reminded me- another thing I forgot to mention was that the horn didn't work after they installed my heated steering wheel. Needless to say between that and the tires I don't have a high degree of confidence in them.

It is unfortunate because I have gotten in the habit of being lazy and just dropping off my cars at the dealer and grabbing a loaner for any maintenance work I needed done- which means I have literally not popped a hood in at least 7-8 years; probably longer. But that was with Porsche, where I trusted the techs a little more. My relationship has since soured with my local Porsche dealer too, but I did at least find a pretty solid indy shop for the Porsche for non-warranty stuff. I'll need to do that for the Acura... or start getting my hands dirty again and do it myself.

As for the camber pins/bolts... we'll see. I've gotten my fill of autocross this season and probably only have 1-2 events left before I hang it up. I'm considering trying to squeeze in an HPDE too just to get the last bit of life out of these OEM PS4S before I buy a set of 200s next spring. Because I'll still be on the stock tires, I'm not overly concerned with messing with the suspension too much until next season... which is also when I'll probably switch over to Ohlins. At that point I'll ramp up the search again to find out who's going to do that install, maybe I'll turn up a shop I'll have supreme confidence in. That would be nice.

 

[StingertimeNC]

When I pulled my strut pins I think I picked up like -.1 deg camber. It was very nominal.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

When I pulled my strut pins I think I picked up like -.1 deg camber. It was very nominal.

I'll do a before and after measure. If I can get an additional 0.3 total, that would be huge.

It doesn't sound like a lot, but if you start at 3.0 total and add 0.3 total, that's a 10% gain from doing basically nothing. It will make a difference, and since it's getting an alignment anyway why not!

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Well, I took apart hatch trim to put in the CF spoiler and I found two broken clips and one entirely missing. No wonder the hatch plastic flexed so much and rattled. The broken pieces weren't in the sheet metal, so someone clearly knew about it, cleared it out, and didn't replace the clips. I bet it was the dealer tech that installed the black badges.

I'm also going to try to fix this delaminating stick on fender bit today...

I was also going to try to adjust the hatch closure adjustment bumper to even out the mismatched hatch to rear panel level, but the adjuster on this side is already totally out and the one on the other side is totally in. There is zero room left for adjustment, so I'll just have to live with it

Also, if anyone has any ideas on how to fix this horrendously aligned and mismatched cowl to fender body alignment, please let me know. I'm thinking maybe pulling the cowl, heating it up, and flexing it into position...?

 

[StingertimeNC]

Lots of little crap. I try not to look too closely at anything for fear of finding something! Lol.
I have the LCM and I think it’s great for hiding panel misalignment.

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