Back on Track

[optronix]

Lots of good conversation going on in here. Unfortunately it all centers around the fact that these cars are starting to really show their flaws. Overall though I think it's a larger industry/global economy thing that's also been touched on already. TL;DR, it isn't just an Acura thing.

this engine could be strapped to an automatic transmission and get put in an SUV and nobody would think it was special

I've found it's pretty hard to nail down reliable sources for engine codes in my "micro-searches" on Google, but I'm pretty sure the RDX has this engine. But it's actually really good! I'd say it's directly on par with the 2.0 in the base Macan, and any additional "fun to drive factor" in the Macan is going to be found in the chassis. But the RDX impressed me; my dealer gave me one for two weeks as a loaner while I waited for my car to arrive. Sadly, this was my one and only great experience with this dealer...

Anyway, I agree that I wish the engine had more character, particularly in the aural department... but I actually think the engine is pretty enjoyable for what it is. I think its strongest characteristic is that I don't feel like I have to ring it out to redline for it to be engaging to drive. For me, that leads to frustration on the street, and probably the only thing I didn't like about the last BMW I had, an F82 M4. But speaking of BMW...

And just because no car is perfect, I will point out that the M2 Comp has a lifeless shifter, numb steering, and dull initial handling feel, but I've only ever gotten pure joy from that car, and I think the high level of quality on that car is the baseline. Doesn't hurt to have all that power and intoxicating acceleration in every gear either, but the fact of the matter is that nothing about that car has caused me to gripe. I can recognize the shortcomings without getting heartburn.

BMW has recently (mid 2010s or so) placed a huge emphasis on build quality and reliability. Ever since the F-chassis cars, you can't really find too much to hate about how they're put together. I've had several generations of BMW 3 series cars, and I'll admit there was a dramatic difference between the E36 pile of trash I had and the E92, there was still little random flaws with the E92 that still made me very nervous owning it out of warranty... the F8x cars have not shared that as far as I know. Audi and Porsche are also similar in this regard... maybe not so much Porsche unless you count the IMS bearing infamy, but Audi was right up there with routine reports of truly catastrophic repair bills in higher mileage cars, especially from the 2000s and early 2010s era.

Every other manufacturer seems to have gone the opposite direction...

hen again this was my first new car since covid, so maybe everyone has just gone to crap and it's time to start buying mid 2010s cars

It really just feels like this. Manufacturers really seem to look for ways to push the envelope with cost-cutting these days, and while some like the German brands I just mentioned and to an extent the Korean brands have placed a noticeable emphasis on improving in these areas (could probably toss Ford in here too honestly...), globally it just feels like cars are made to a price point and Honda is definitely no exception.

It's just a pity that Acura came so close to recreating the old magic, then fumbled on quality. They had great intentions and got all the important stuff right, but just couldn't execute 100% on the manufacturing.

This is probably the best way I've seen it articulated. After a year and a half of ownership, I still love to drive this car... but like many others some of its flaws have really held back the lasting excitement for it. They almost all come down to build quality issues or dealer experiences, which both indicate a "lesser" brand philosophy when compared to its true luxury segment rivals.

Which sucks, because I really was hoping this car could keep me excited for at least a few years before making me itch to get another car.

It's a first-world problem for sure. And it's not any single huge flaw, it's just "death from a thousand cuts"... coming from owning several other "high end" sports cars from truly premium brands, it's finally started to feel like I made the "budget" choice. And it didn't have to be this way, had Honda actually put a little more effort into the actual manufacturing and delivery of their excellently engineered car.

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[ABPDE5]

I've found it's pretty hard to nail down reliable sources for engine codes in my "micro-searches" on Google, but I'm pretty sure the RDX has this engine. But it's actually really good! I'd say it's directly on par with the 2.0 in the base Macan, and any additional "fun to drive factor" in the Macan is going to be found in the chassis. But the RDX impressed me; my dealer gave me one for two weeks as a loaner while I waited for my car to arrive. Sadly, this was my one and only great experience with this dealer...

The 2.0 in the RDX, TLX, last gen Accord, etc. is similar, but not quite identical. It's been a year or two since I did the deep dive on this, but thanks to Accord owners looking to add power, there is a lot of information out there on the differences between the K20 in the FK8/FL5/DE5 (K20C1/8) and the one in the rest of Honda's lineup (K20C4).

It was explicitly confirmed by engine builders and those comparing part #s that the crank and block are identical. It was also explicitly confirmed that the Type-R / ITS get different pistons, cams, and fueling (as well as a different turbo / ECU) and that they don't have balancing shafts. The FL5 / DE5 also have a different turbo and different pistons than the FK8 (and, if I remember correctly, different injectors). My guess is the valvetrain / head are the same between all these variants, but I don't know for sure.

I'm also pretty certain that the terrible intake design on this car is a carry-over from the RDX, etc. where Honda prioritized packaging.

So, the engine family is the same, the engine itself is very similar, but Honda did make *some* effort to give the Type-R / DE5 a stronger top end and less rotating mass (key word being stronger... this engine still falls flat after the mid-range, although I believe that's due to the tiny turbo the FL5 / DE5 get and that the FK8 has more character in that regard).

My thoughts on this engine are that it's fine to very good. It is not exciting like celebrated Honda engines of the past (the top end is lacking, and I'd be disappointed if it was packaged in a legit "sports car"), but the reality is that, with modern reg.s -- especially those in Europe / Japan -- the days of those engines are behind us (there are exceptions, but they're expensive, and they won't be here much longer). The mid range is great, and it manages to be pretty responsive; I think it's a pretty good balance overall. Apparently, it is a different beast with a tune, but I don't find myself needing more power, and I'm not keen on throwing away ~$10k of my car's value on top of the costs and hassle involved with unlocking, flashing, tuning, etc.

 

[optronix]

The 2.0 in the RDX, TLX, last gen Accord, etc. is similar, but not quite identical. It's been a year or two since I did the deep dive on this, but thanks to Accord owners looking to add power, there is a lot of information out there on the differences between the K20 in the FK8/FL5/DE5 (K20C1/8) and the one in the rest of Honda's lineup (K20C4).

It was explicitly confirmed by engine builders and those comparing part #s that the crank and block are identical. It was also explicitly confirmed that the Type-R / ITS get different pistons, cams, and fueling (as well as a different turbo / ECU) and that they don't have balancing shafts. The FL5 / DE5 also have a different turbo and different pistons than the FK8 (and, if I remember correctly, different injectors). My guess is the valvetrain / head are the same between all these variants, but I don't know for sure.

I'm also pretty certain that the terrible intake design on this car is a carry-over from the RDX, etc. where Honda prioritized packaging.

So, the engine family is the same, the engine itself is very similar, but Honda did make *some* effort to give the Type-R / DE5 a stronger top end and less rotating mass (key word being stronger... this engine still falls flat after the mid-range, although I believe that's due to the tiny turbo the FL5 / DE5 get and that the FK8 has more character in that regard).

My thoughts on this engine are that it's fine to very good. It is not exciting like celebrated Honda engines of the past (the top end is lacking, and I'd be disappointed if it was packaged in a legit "sports car"), but the reality is that, with modern reg.s -- especially those in Europe / Japan -- the days of those engines are behind us (there are exceptions, but they're expensive, and they won't be here much longer). The mid range is great, and it manages to be pretty responsive; I think it's a pretty good balance overall. Apparently, it is a different beast with a tune, but I don't find myself needing more power, and I'm not keen on throwing away ~$10k of my car's value on top of the costs and hassle involved with unlocking, flashing, tuning, etc.

I'm wholly uninterested in a tune.

Yeah, I probably should have specified it's of the same family, but saying "has this engine" pretty much implies it is the exact same... I knew that the engine was "racified" for the FL5/DE5 but the underlying platform is shared. This happens in a lot of brands, and to your point, is just another data point that really very few cars are truly bespoke "sports cars" and share many parts/engineering concepts with far more mundane cars. None of this should be surprising to enthusiasts, and if someone's bar is set at "pure sports car" then they should probably start hanging out someplace like this.

And I think another theme in the last few pages of this thread is that the days of the high-spinning N/A engines, smaller dimensions, analog inputs, etc. are now truly a thing of the past. There is zero doubt in my mind that the market is still there- but the regulations have gotten to the point where it just doesn't make sense for any manufacturer to put the effort in to bringing something like this to market. Porsche seems to be the absolute last one standing here, and the 718 GTS/GT4 is going away very very soon. We still have the GT3, but prices have been absurd for those cars for a while now. Everything else has gone turbo or hybrid.

I'm regretting letting go of my 981 GTS more and more with each passing moment.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I'm wholly uninterested in a tune.

Yeah, I probably should have specified it's of the same family, but saying "has this engine" pretty much implies it is the exact same... I knew that the engine was "racified" for the FL5/DE5 but the underlying platform is shared. This happens in a lot of brands, and to your point, is just another data point that really very few cars are truly bespoke "sports cars" and share many parts/engineering concepts with far more mundane cars. None of this should be surprising to enthusiasts, and if someone's bar is set at "pure sports car" then they should probably start hanging out someplace like this.

And I think another theme in the last few pages of this thread is that the days of the high-spinning N/A engines, smaller dimensions, analog inputs, etc. are now truly a thing of the past. There is zero doubt in my mind that the market is still there- but the regulations have gotten to the point where it just doesn't make sense for any manufacturer to put the effort in to bringing something like this to market. Porsche seems to be the absolute last one standing here, and the 718 GTS/GT4 is going away very very soon. We still have the GT3, but prices have been absurd for those cars for a while now. Everything else has gone turbo or hybrid.

I'm regretting letting go of my 981 GTS more and more with each passing moment.

981 was also the last of porches true beauties. Every angle looked sculpted, unlike the modern over styled stuff.

People knocked the 370z for how long it's been around, but hey aluminum double wishbone suspension, factory 14" 4pot/2pot brakes, carbon composite single piece drive shaft, lsd, a good manual (certainly better than any linkage trans), and an engine with a 7500rpm redline it loved to reach and a wall of torque across the majority of the rev band. Pretty solid build quality as well. My street z had no rattles (except for a seat belt clip which I yanked on and it stopped making noises) and it was far more comfortable. My track z is downright blissfully comfy on a race track, but hey that's that double wish packaging. Oh and let's not forget factory forged wheels and an ability to stuff a 295 tire all around or a 295/315 combo . Lambo sized rubber in Integra sized power and shoes, .

Its let downs were "ice mode" on track (solved with yaw sensor pull), and a propensity for hot oil (it NEEDS ester based synth oil and an oil cooler).

Poor man's cayman they called it... They weren't totally wrong either.

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