Everyday Driver: Integra Type-S, Civic Type-R, Audi S3 comparison review

[darksi08]

My takeaway here is that you miss your M2C.

I 100% agree, if I didn't need the extra two doors for my beast of a dog I'd have one and keep it forever. Or a CS but it is tough to justify the premium over the Competition.

It was my wife's M2C, but yes, definitely miss that car. Do NOT miss the possibility of a spun crank hub on the S55 though, and the proper fix costs just as much as a repair if it lets go.

Honestly, I'm completely enamored with the ITS. It's honestly the first car I've owned in ages that I feel like doesn't 'need' anything, as it's so incredibly well-balanced out of the box. It's also the first time in about 3 years that I've received my permanent license plate for the car, and I'm not already considering replacements.

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[optronix]

It was my wife's M2C, but yes, definitely miss that car. Do NOT miss the possibility of a spun crank hub on the S55 though, and the proper fix costs just as much as a repair if it lets go.

Honestly, I'm completely enamored with the ITS. It's honestly the first car I've owned in ages that I feel like doesn't 'need' anything, as it's so incredibly well-balanced out of the box. It's also the first time in about 3 years that I've received my permanent license plate for the car, and I'm not already considering replacements.

First I've heard of any issues with the S55. I thought it was more or less the most reliable engine BMW M Division has ever cranked out (pun intended).

This feels like an "IMS bearing" vibe, where it only happens to like .15% of the overall population but everybody is scared of it... in any case, I am "less scared" of a Honda engine popping than a BMW M engine.

 

[darksi08]

First I've heard of any issues with the S55. I thought it was more or less the most reliable engine BMW M Division has ever cranked out (pun intended).

This feels like an "IMS bearing" vibe, where it only happens to like .15% of the overall population but everybody is scared of it... in any case, I am "less scared" of a Honda engine popping than a BMW M engine.

https://www.google.com/search?q=s55...CDQ0MzJqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The S55 crank hub issue is a pretty big one, due to a pretty massive design flaw. It's easy to fix if you trust one of the cage solutions, but the only real fix is to replace the crank hub with a billet one.

As for how widespread it is, it depends on your driving style. If you're the type to let off of the throttle hard for some pop-pop-bang action, or gear-skipping downshifts (which is a terrible idea anyway) it's GOING to get you eventually, as it's very much like the spun crank hub issue on the newer 4G63. It does seem to be a predominately DSG issue, which doesn't matter to a lot of people, but you'd be surprised at how much character that DSG adds to the car - especially versus the infamous rubber shifter in the manual BMWs.

Plenty of people have the issue with stock power, but it (like so many things, of course) is exacerbated once you start adding power. It's $5k to get the billet crank hub installed, or about the same to fix the car if you spin the crank hub, though you'll be down longer if you do spin the hub. Thankfully it's a non-interference engine, so you're not going to be dropping a new longblock in it either way.

Now - that all said, the majority of the information out there on the issue and what causes it tends to come from the very same people trying to sell you a fix for it, so you always have to take things with a hefty dose of salt - but I'd probably invest in the bolt cage, at the least, if I was to get another M2C.

 

[optronix]

https://www.google.com/search?q=s55...CDQ0MzJqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The S55 crank hub issue is a pretty big one, due to a pretty massive design flaw. It's easy to fix if you trust one of the cage solutions, but the only real fix is to replace the crank hub with a billet one.

As for how widespread it is, it depends on your driving style. If you're the type to let off of the throttle hard for some pop-pop-bang action, or gear-skipping downshifts (which is a terrible idea anyway) it's GOING to get you eventually, as it's very much like the spun crank hub issue on the newer 4G63. It does seem to be a predominately DSG issue, which doesn't matter to a lot of people, but you'd be surprised at how much character that DSG adds to the car - especially versus the infamous rubber shifter in the manual BMWs.

Plenty of people have the issue with stock power, but it (like so many things, of course) is exacerbated once you start adding power. It's $5k to get the billet crank hub installed, or about the same to fix the car if you spin the crank hub, though you'll be down longer if you do spin the hub. Thankfully it's a non-interference engine, so you're not going to be dropping a new longblock in it either way.

Now - that all said, the majority of the information out there on the issue and what causes it tends to come from the very same people trying to sell you a fix for it, so you always have to take things with a hefty dose of salt - but I'd probably invest in the bolt cage, at the least, if I was to get another M2C.

Great post, saved me a bunch of research lol.

There are a handful of cars on a short list of what I'll be considering as a dedicated track/fun car in a few years (when the last kid graduates), and the M2 is near the top of that list, especially considering the price point. I just went to an autocross last weekend where there was a very nice "mid-cycle refresh" M2 (so not the OG but still had the N55... I think)- and that thing had an aftermarket exhaust that literally put a sea of naturally aspirated Porsches to shame. I like the changes made with the Comp though and longshot would be a CS, but in any form I really love the M2 and may be adding one to the stable someday.

FWIW I had an F82 M4 for almost 3 years and I actually really loved that car. It was loaded with DCT and adaptive suspension but was not a ZCP/Competition. For a track car it was actually really great (as long as the stock steel brakes are attended to...) but basically anywhere that wasn't a track it was almost boring- and TOO FAST for the street, even in stock form (to me at least).

All that said I'd still probably try to get a manual. I haven't driven a CS manual, but from what I can gather they made some changes to it and it's not as "rubbery" as the standard BMW shifters- if this is indeed the case then I may just bite the bullet and track one down, although I feel like the longer I wait the higher the cost of entry will be...

/BMWtalk

 

[darksi08]

Great post, saved me a bunch of research lol.

There are a handful of cars on a short list of what I'll be considering as a dedicated track/fun car in a few years (when the last kid graduates), and the M2 is near the top of that list, especially considering the price point. I just went to an autocross last weekend where there was a very nice "mid-cycle refresh" M2 (so not the OG but still had the N55... I think)- and that thing had an aftermarket exhaust that literally put a sea of naturally aspirated Porsches to shame. I like the changes made with the Comp though and longshot would be a CS, but in any form I really love the M2 and may be adding one to the stable someday.

FWIW I had an F82 M4 for almost 3 years and I actually really loved that car. It was loaded with DCT and adaptive suspension but was not a ZCP/Competition. For a track car it was actually really great (as long as the stock steel brakes are attended to...) but basically anywhere that wasn't a track it was almost boring- and TOO FAST for the street, even in stock form (to me at least).

All that said I'd still probably try to get a manual. I haven't driven a CS manual, but from what I can gather they made some changes to it and it's not as "rubbery" as the standard BMW shifters- if this is indeed the case then I may just bite the bullet and track one down, although I feel like the longer I wait the higher the cost of entry will be...

/BMWtalk

Haha - last post by me. Yes, the 2018 M2 has the N55, and was the only year to have that and the slight refresh to the headlights and taillights before the major changes on the Comp. The N55 sounds absolutely incredible compared to the S55, even in stock form, but it is nowhere near as meaty.

Anyway, yes, I miss the M2C a ton, but the ITS is so fantastic, I’m actually ok without owning one. Haha

 

[PRDE5]

I’m glad some of you enjoy BMW’s, I had one in my life and it was a endless money pit. Will never own a BMW again.

 

[darksi08]

I’m glad some of you enjoy BMW’s, I had one in my life and it was a endless money pit. Will never own a BMW again.

There is absolutely zero chance I'd own one outside of warranty, unless it was a unicorn!

 

[Ministry]

I've had an RS3 on order for about 18 months. It's finally due in sometime in December ('24 model) so I have some time before I make my final decision but I'm leaning on just keeping the ITS.

 

[VarmintCong]

I've had an RS3 on order for about 18 months. It's finally due in sometime in December ('24 model) so I have some time before I make my final decision but I'm leaning on just keeping the ITS.

have you driven one? I'd guess it's rather numb compared to the ITS, but the engine sound would never get old.

I miss having a nice sounding engine, last one I had was the 2004 330i ZHP, loved listening to that engine. Longest I ever owned a car too, at 12 years.

 

[optronix]

have you driven one? I'd guess it's rather numb compared to the ITS, but the engine sound would never get old.

I miss having a nice sounding engine, last one I had was the 2004 330i ZHP, loved listening to that engine. Longest I ever owned a car too, at 12 years.

Engine sound really does add to the experience, but IMO it isn't enough to overcome a comprehensive package like the ITS delivers. Add the fact that it's DSG only and that was a death sentence for me for the RS3, despite really liking the design. The RS3 was my 2nd favorite sports sedan design behind the F80 M3 before the ITS came around, now it's 3rd. I still think the F80 edges out the ITS but just barely.

Also, and I know this is an unpopular opinion- but the 5 cylinder in the RS3 is good but not great to me. At least from the outside, and in stock form. Maybe that changes behind the wheel- especially because I've heard wonderful things about the power delivery of the engine beyond the sound- but even if I could deal with not having a manual I'd still pick the ITS over the RS3. I've said it many times at this point- the ITS is just on a short list of "pure driver's cars" and Audi doesn't have a modern car that is on that list.

I could easily see why someone would pick the RS3 over an ITS, but I'll stand by my take that the ITS is the more enthusiast-appropriate option.

I'm not the only one either, this is actually a pretty good video comparison of a CTR vs an RS3- and personally I think the ITS lengthens the gap even further over the CTR:

 

[grahm]

I've had an RS3 on order for about 18 months. It's finally due in sometime in December ('24 model) so I have some time before I make my final decision but I'm leaning on just keeping the ITS.

The 8Y RS3 is a great car. I’d say the ITS/CTR has better inputs, but the RS3 to me feels more playful. It’s also obviously much faster and quite a bit nicer inside, even if it’s probably not as nice as it should be for $65K. To me the RS3 feels more worth its price than the ITS (assuming both are at MSRP).

Besides speed, engine, dealership experience, and a bit more luxury, I think the big advantage of the RS3 is AWD if you live somewhere where that matters. I live in the PNW and the AWD is nice to have. But ultimately I’m sure I’d be happy with either car and I don’t think you can make a wrong choice.

 

[VarmintCong]

The 8Y RS3 is a great car. I’d say the ITS/CTR has better inputs, but the RS3 to me feels more playful. It’s also obviously much faster and quite a bit nicer inside, even if it’s probably not as nice as it should be for $65K. To me the RS3 feels more worth its price than the ITS (assuming both are at MSRP).

Besides speed, engine, dealership experience, and a bit more luxury, I think the big advantage of the RS3 is AWD if you live somewhere where that matters. I live in the PNW and the AWD is nice to have. But ultimately I’m sure I’d be happy with either car and I don’t think you can make a wrong choice.

If it had a manual it would be awesome. And if the ITS was auto only I wouldn't be interested.

Although the manuals in GTIs are meh.

 

[optronix]

If it had a manual it would be awesome. And if the ITS was auto only I wouldn't be interested.

Although the manuals in GTIs are meh.

This is a major point too- it's not just the fact that a manual is there, it's the quality of the manual actually adding to the overall experience.

I've said before how much I loved the S3 while I had it, and it's true... but when I decided to "consolidate" to a single car and needed a manual, the Golf R just didn't make the cut. It does deserve to be brought into this discussion though, because at least for right now if you want a manual S3 you can sort of have one- it's just in the form of a VW hatch, for better or for worse.

The 5 cylinder not having at least one manual option somewhere does feel like a crime though.

 

[lumper]

I really don't understand the "FL5 is built for the track first; DE5 is built for the street first" mantra that keeps getting repeated. Let's be clear: both of these cars are primarily road cars that offer some track capability. The idea that either of these cars is a track car first is laughable.

Beyond that... the cars are essentially mechanically identical. Neither one is more track capable than the other, and both cars require the same modifications to reliably track aggressively with regularity.

The only real differences between these two cars are their price and their styling: pick the seats, suspension, and appearance that you want (I don't think the DE5's 5% stock power and 3% chassis rigidity advantages will manifest in any measurable way for 99.9% of drivers; the FL5's stiffer dampers might... I'd wager they probably don't, either).

In the sense that the CTR has the type R gauge cluster, the data and metrics, the various screens and functions that the ITS doesn't have and that would be useful at the track.

The ITs doesn't have these, instead it is set up more for a daily driver and not really set up in terms of software or engine monitoring programs.

They omitted the racing seats, the badge inside, and the feel and look of a track car, plus Acura has said multiple times, they engineered the ITS to be a premium quality street performance car, whereas the CTR was designed and engineered to be both a daily and a decent track car with built in data and software to be used at the track.

The suspension settings in the CTR aren't set up for the street, well they are in comfort mode, but they include a track mode that would be very harsh on regular roads, whereas the ITS doesn't have the track setting firmness but does have a very compliant suspension for roads, same with the seats.
Sure, they are both street cars, but they did consider the track when building the Type R, and the street when building the ITS.
Also, people in these reviews keep saying luxury, the ITS isn't a luxury car, never was, it is premium quality performance.

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