Finding traction in 1st/2nd gear

[slo_its]

Wondering if others have this issue. It's been hard to find traction in first two gears on a hot day with dry pavement even with well reviewed PS4S and 265 width.

I come from a lighter Acura EL with K20A making about 230-240 at the crank. Tires were 205 width, Dunlop Dirreza Z1 Star Spec. It was hard to break traction flooring from a stand still in first all the way to red line. Feel of the pull is stronger than the ITS but only because ITS is losing traction just before full boost, even at maybe 70% throttle in first.

I'd say lateral traction is quite good, as long as I'm not trying to exit a corner in second gear. The car is very communicative at least so it's easy to correct.

Anyone else have this issue? I'm wondering what I'm missing or if this is just how it is. I mean, after all, we're talking about nearly twice the torque as my old car so I know it would be rough on the tires.

I'm wondering about the following:
- cold tire pressure checks out at 35/33. But some driving around the city and it gets up to 38/35. Traction is an issue cold or hot. I still need to do a temperature check to see if the contact patch is good, which is what matters end of the day
- better compound? There isn't many options for this size. Stepping down to 18" could go for 265/35R19 RE-71RS maybe.
- stiffer suspension to reduce front lift? My previous setup was too aggressive for the road, but was great for handling. Wonder if this also had an effect on why a lot of reviewers had a hard time getting good launch on ITS, other than the slight extra power. Can't expect it to be that big of a difference though.
- should I just reset my expectations?

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[submitaweasel]

You're comparing the torque of a k20a to a k20c. Therein lies the rooted issue. You also note that the lighter car pulls harder which is well, physics.

A few considerations:
1. The low profile tires on the ITS do not have much sidewall to flex prior to breaking traction. This is why you see drag racers running 15" wheels. Your 205 width tires likely have some more sidewall give.
2. The k20c reaches full torque by 2300rpm.(correct me if I'm wrong). This is then carried throughout the rev range. Your k20a torque is growing to a peak somewhere likely closer to 6000rpm. This is a significant difference.
3. Also regarding torque, the k20c is running a relatively small turbocharger that even at "70% throttle" is likely at full boost until you near redline. Even at 50% throttle, the engine will deliver more than 75% rated torque because, well, it's turbocharged. With the e-gate and drive by wire, it could have been tuned to be more progressive, but that's not what people want. It would feel less responsive to throttle inputs.
4. 300+hp/tq in a fwd platform is in reality asking too much of the tires. Remember the launch of the OG focus rs(the 5cyl euro model)? It was unheard-of for a fwd car to have that kind of power and be driveable.

In short,

- should I just reset my expectations?

yes

 

[Azkyrie6]

4. 300+hp/tq in a fwd platform is in reality asking too much of the tires. Remember the launch of the OG focus rs(the 5cyl euro model)? It was unheard-of for a fwd car to have that kind of power and be driveable.

In short,yes

Not much of a tuner, but I’ve read here and there the civic type R folks push their FK8 to 400-600HP. It’s also a front wheel drive car, how are they making their vehicles driveable?

 

[sfedai0]

Not much of a tuner, but I’ve read here and there the civic type R folks push their FK8 to 400-600HP. It’s also a front wheel drive car, how are they making their vehicles driveable?

Define driveable. If theyre still DD those cars, its certainly not "driveable" without careful throttle input and control. I personally think its pointless to add that much power to any car that wasnt designed with that sort of HP in mind.

 

[slo_its]

You're comparing the torque of a k20a to a k20c. Therein lies the rooted issue. You also note that the lighter car pulls harder which is well, physics.

A few considerations:
1. The low profile tires on the ITS do not have much sidewall to flex prior to breaking traction. This is why you see drag racers running 15" wheels. Your 205 width tires likely have some more sidewall give.
2. The k20c reaches full torque by 2300rpm.(correct me if I'm wrong). This is then carried throughout the rev range. Your k20a torque is growing to a peak somewhere likely closer to 6000rpm. This is a significant difference.
3. Also regarding torque, the k20c is running a relatively small turbocharger that even at "70% throttle" is likely at full boost until you near redline. Even at 50% throttle, the engine will deliver more than 75% rated torque because, well, it's turbocharged. With the e-gate and drive by wire, it could have been tuned to be more progressive, but that's not what people want. It would feel less responsive to throttle inputs.
4. 300+hp/tq in a fwd platform is in reality asking too much of the tires. Remember the launch of the OG focus rs(the 5cyl euro model)? It was unheard-of for a fwd car to have that kind of power and be driveable.

In short,yes

Thanks for this. I figured as much. I think I just need to figure out the throttle with this car. I do feel that 3rd gear pulls really nice and reminds me of 2nd gear in my old car before VTEC. I tried full throttle in first today and gradually letting off as boost built up and it felt better. Will keep playing with it to figure out best way to launch it.

I've been watching the tach... I think full boost is at 2500rpm and I think I read that somewhere. There's just not much happening below that and then tires get overwhelmed shortly after.

Maybe next year I'll see if I want to down size the rims and get a bit stickier summer compound. Sounds like having some flex won't be a bad idea. And yes, my old tires were 205/45/17. So definitely some more sidewall. That might lose some steering sharpness but I feel like it would be a good compromise.

Not much of a tuner, but I’ve read here and there the civic type R folks push their FK8 to 400-600HP. It’s also a front wheel drive car, how are they making their vehicles driveable?

I believe some of them use boost by gear. Boost increases as they shift up. Can't imagine daily driving with that much power to the front wheels in first 3 gears. Many making 600hp are focusing more on drag racing which is a complete different tire compound.

 

[submitaweasel]

I think full boost is at 2500rpm and I think I read that somewhere. There's just not much happening below that and then tires get overwhelmed shortly after.

With these new cars, it's not actually full boost. It's full torque. They achieve the flat torque curves by small changes in boost as the revs rise by minute changes in how far the wastegate is opened. Im sure tere's a lot a programming and testing that it took to get to that point, but basically, the ECU calculates the torque at any given point and will change the wastegate position as it sees fit to hit that target.

When you are right at the boost threshold of the turbo (2500rpm or thereabouts) the torque will spike very quickly which will quickly overwhelm almost any tire. I don't have an ITS but I believe your first gear revs out to <40mph? The torque multiplication with that small of a gear is huge. Before going too far down the rabbit hole, say your final ratio in first gear is a 5:1 reduction (iirc its closer to 7:1 but this is just a rough example). Ignoring any driveline losses, the engine peaks at 310ftlb x 500% reduction = your tires are seeing >1500ftlb the instant that turbo lights.

Maybe next year I'll see if I want to down size the rims and get a bit stickier summer compound.

Remember, aspect ratio is dependent on tread width so do not assume a lower aspect ratio equals less sidewall when choosing tires. Common sense to some, but not all, so I chose to note it here.

I believe some of them use boost by gear. Boost increases as they shift up. Can't imagine daily driving with that much power to the front wheels in first 3 gears.

Just about everybody has been using boost by gear or boost by speed for the past decade. Thats how we have 1000hp supras that can hook on the street. Those cars arent seeing full boost until 100+mph.


Turbo engines are fun but their power delivery is completely different from the old naturally aspirated or even supercharged engines that they are replacing. With the quick adoption of turbocharged engines by so many OEMs there is a learning curve for everyone that is just now experiencing these magnificent little spooly-boys. Im including myself in this as well. My first experience with a turbo car was eye opening. It was a 300whp sr20 240sx with a gt28r. Boost threshold was 4000 rpm on that thing and it was like a lightswitch at that rpm. That car had 225/45r17 continental extremecontact dws tires that couldnt withstand that torque ramp in 2nd gear. Granted these newer cars are much more civilized than that was, but there still are characteristics of the power delivery of turbochargers that just can't be tuned out and rely on the driver to manage.

 

[eculley]

This is a momentum car, not an off-the-line car. What you’re experiencing is not an issue but rather expected behavior.

 

[slo_its]

Thanks for the background @submitaweasel . That helps to put my mind at ease. This is my first turbo car so I appreciate you sharing your first experience. I just wanted to make sure the car is doing what it's supposed to.

@eculley I definitely don't expect it to be an off the line car. I mainly got it for handling, transmission, and just how direct it feels compared to all the numb cars these days. I'd have gotten AWD if I mainly cared for launching.

I would however like to figure out how to launch it better so it at least a) doesn't just run my tires down quickly, and b) be a bit more fun off the line like my old car, which wasn't really that fast but just had good tires as engine never overwhelmed them.

It doesn't help that I've been driving a boring SUV for years after the death of my old car (more just life...kids...no time to repair the 10 things wrong with a 20 year old rust bucket). I think both of those cars gave me a bad habit of flooring it most of the time. I've done some sim racing without traction control and I definitely need more finesse in throttle input!

I'll definitely try to post back on my experience between driver recalibration to vehicle mods in finding traction.

 

[bpebler]

With these new cars, it's not actually full boost. It's full torque. They achieve the flat torque curves by small changes in boost as the revs rise by minute changes in how far the wastegate is opened. Im sure tere's a lot a programming and testing that it took to get to that point, but basically, the ECU calculates the torque at any given point and will change the wastegate position as it sees fit to hit that target.

When you are right at the boost threshold of the turbo (2500rpm or thereabouts) the torque will spike very quickly which will quickly overwhelm almost any tire. I don't have an ITS but I believe your first gear revs out to <40mph? The torque multiplication with that small of a gear is huge. Before going too far down the rabbit hole, say your final ratio in first gear is a 5:1 reduction (iirc its closer to 7:1 but this is just a rough example). Ignoring any driveline losses, the engine peaks at 310ftlb x 500% reduction = your tires are seeing >1500ftlb the instant that turbo lights.



Remember, aspect ratio is dependent on tread width so do not assume a lower aspect ratio equals less sidewall when choosing tires. Common sense to some, but not all, so I chose to note it here.



Just about everybody has been using boost by gear or boost by speed for the past decade. Thats how we have 1000hp supras that can hook on the street. Those cars arent seeing full boost until 100+mph.


Turbo engines are fun but their power delivery is completely different from the old naturally aspirated or even supercharged engines that they are replacing. With the quick adoption of turbocharged engines by so many OEMs there is a learning curve for everyone that is just now experiencing these magnificent little spooly-boys. Im including myself in this as well. My first experience with a turbo car was eye opening. It was a 300whp sr20 240sx with a gt28r. Boost threshold was 4000 rpm on that thing and it was like a lightswitch at that rpm. That car had 225/45r17 continental extremecontact dws tires that couldnt withstand that torque ramp in 2nd gear. Granted these newer cars are much more civilized than that was, but there still are characteristics of the power delivery of turbochargers that just can't be tuned out and rely on the driver to manage.

Damn, man - with all that wealth of info you SHOULD have an ITS! LOL maybe start a gofundme for the difference of your trade in that we can help contribute to.

 

[bpebler]

Thanks for the background @submitaweasel . That helps to put my mind at ease. This is my first turbo car so I appreciate you sharing your first experience. I just wanted to make sure the car is doing what it's supposed to.

@eculley I definitely don't expect it to be an off the line car. I mainly got it for handling, transmission, and just how direct it feels compared to all the numb cars these days. I'd have gotten AWD if I mainly cared for launching.

I would however like to figure out how to launch it better so it at least a) doesn't just run my tires down quickly, and b) be a bit more fun off the line like my old car, which wasn't really that fast but just had good tires as engine never overwhelmed them.

It doesn't help that I've been driving a boring SUV for years after the death of my old car (more just life...kids...no time to repair the 10 things wrong with a 20 year old rust bucket). I think both of those cars gave me a bad habit of flooring it most of the time. I've done some sim racing without traction control and I definitely need more finesse in throttle input!

I'll definitely try to post back on my experience between driver recalibration to vehicle mods in finding traction.

I appreciate your posting. I'm in almost the same exact boat as you. Missing my Integra from almost 20 years ago that I started to mod, but issue with the delivery of the Vtec engine replacement. Then I've only had NA or supercharged cars - this is my first turbo vehicle as well. Been mainly driving a Jeep we built ourselves & trucks/wife's SUV, & very excited to be back in something like this. I plan on tracking it (autocross I suppose, but mainly open/hot lapping) & info like this is incredibly useful to a newbie like me.

 

[Azkyrie6]

Define driveable. If theyre still DD those cars, its certainly not "driveable" without careful throttle input and control. I personally think its pointless to add that much power to any car that wasnt designed with that sort of HP in mind.

Driveable as in still drive around the city without the engine blowing up or parts breaking down.

I wouldn’t even know what’s a “safe” horsepower rating for the ITS and still be able to drive my children around. Which is I’ll likely never tune it. Some bolt ons perhaps but I want the ITS to last well beyond 200k miles

 

[submitaweasel]

Damn, man - with all that wealth of info you SHOULD have an ITS! LOL maybe start a gofundme for the difference of your trade in that we can help contribute to.

You, sir, are an enabler. I'll keep my plebian integra and keep the go fast bits to the cars that don't have daily driving duties

 

[bpebler]

You, sir, are an enabler. I'll keep my plebian integra and keep the go fast bits to the cars that don't have daily driving duties

Oh ya know, just tryin' to help & always thinking outside the box. A little too much probably. "Speed is a helluva drug." Ok, it's a tad bit misquoted, but nonetheless.

 

[whtciv2k]

Not really possible, OP. This much torque going to front wheels and you’re going to get spin. That’s part of its fun and character though!

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