Any ISSUES with lowering springs on track??

[StingertimeNC]

I'm probably not in tune with the car enough to really notice the additional torque steer from the rims and springs and stuff. Although I don't auto-cross or drive really hard at low speeds. I pretty much drive fast in longer sweeping turns and do real heavy acceleration with less steering input.

Sponsored

 

[TampaDE5]

Along this thread lines, has anyone ran H&R springs in TEs 19x9.5 with +36 offset ?

+36 turns out pretty aggressive so I am concerned that under cornering / braking it could rub. It'll either be perfect.... or rub a little.

 

[StingertimeNC]

So I'm running a +45 offset, but with 275 tires. The extra 10mm tire width being split side to side means I'm essentially the same as a +40 offset, with 265 tires, right? Not sure if anyone knows or can explain this, but is my logic sound?

Also the guys at AHC Garage (youtube) are running a 19 x 9.5 Vossen rim that's +40, and they're lowered. With -2 degrees of camber it's a big maybe on the TE's. Not sure there's room for a +36. I would search Te37 on Integra Type S on youtube and see what you come up with. Seems to me there's one guy running them who's lowered, but can't remember his name. So basically I'm no help, LOL.

 

[RamVA]

So I'm running a +45 offset, but with 275 tires. The extra 10mm tire width being split side to side means I'm essentially the same as a +40 offset, with 265 tires, right? Not sure if anyone knows or can explain this, but is my logic sound?

Your logic is sound. Those will be the same clearance on the outside, and tighter on the inside, but the inside won't be a problem, since you moved the wheels out from stock. I think the only ill effects will be more torque steer, since you've moved the front tires 20mm further from the steering axis.

Net of all of that, your outer edge will be 25mm (1") further out than stock.

 

[TampaDE5]

I can confirm a lot of torque steer It's to the point where I don't think I can go past bolt ons, so maybe it's a blessing in disguise for the wallet.

Got the teggy lowered on spoon progressives now. Id say there is a little more sag in the rear than I expected but still looks good and rides great. Going to get the rv6 rear camber arms to correct the negative camber that the springs added. The rears tuck inside the fender and I could probably leave it but I'm wanting a more consistent front v rear fit. We shall see if this creates rubbing in the rear !

 

[StingertimeNC]

sorry if you already posted, but what are your specs for wheels/tires?

 

[TampaDE5]

Hey stinger, I'm running 19 x 9.5 +36 offset , stock PS4s tires. Pokes about 5mm

 

[optronix]

The rear sag is a thing with the spoons; supposedly this was corrected in a later version but this is just forum hearsay (the info I got on the subject came from this site's sister forum, civicxi.com). If you care to search for the thread, some guy in Australia (username Tezzasaurus if I'm remembering correctly?) actually made rear spacers for the spring perches to correct this issue he'll sell you, if that's something you want to look into.

Just a personal preference, but instead of the rear camber arms, I'd suggest front lower ball joints to bring the front camber more inline with the extra camber added in the rear; I'm at ~-2.5 in the rear and would love to have that same figure in the front (it's at -1.5 in the front). If your use case doesn't include track/autocross then it doesn't matter all that much, but -2.5 degrees isn't really a substantial amount to induce tire wear so to each their own...

The torque steer is annoying as all hell, and I'm running significantly less offset at +45- but as someone pointed out in another thread I could be experiencing the "sticky steering" phenomenon. I just switched back to the OEM wheels but haven't driven enough to really come to a conclusion if the torque steer is lessened... truth be told it feels almost less stable (or more twitchy? Not real sure how to articulate it...) with the OEM setup on Continental DWS06+ compared to the 19 x 9.5 +45 Apex VS-5RS on PS4S that I'd gotten used to... but I haven't hooned on it since I did the swap. I'm quite curious about the steering issue and will have to get in and get that recall done soonest, because now that I'm thinking about it, my annoyance came on pretty suddenly, a few weeks AFTER I had the springs done and several months after switching to the lower offset wheels...

More to come on this.

 

[TampaDE5]

Optron, will the FL5 front camber joints and rear arms fit our cars? Looks like J's Racing has some nice parts out for the FL5 including that front ball joint ..

Another option my brother recommended was just swapping the front springs to some eibach sportlines , which might naturally add some camber and kind of even out the stance I guess.

 

[optronix]

Optron, will the FL5 front camber joints and rear arms fit our cars? Looks like J's Racing has some nice parts out for the FL5 including that front ball joint ..

Another option my brother recommended was just swapping the front springs to some eibach sportlines , which might naturally add some camber and kind of even out the stance I guess.

Very few parts designed for the FL5 are incompatible with the DE5. All suspension parts that I'm aware of are compatible, but as with all things related to the Internet, I'd encourage you to do your own due diligence before taking my word for it .

The springs themselves only add camber to the rear. Sportlines won't make a difference. @Victorofhavoc can likely explain the exact reason why the suspension geometry in the front isn't altered significantly when lowering the car (I think I knew at one point but forgot).

Aesthetically, I can't really tell the difference- at least it isn't obvious. -2 degrees isn't a huge amount of camber visually, at least to my eyes. It absolutely does make a difference in the overall feel of the car past ~6/10ths. I wouldn't say it's ruined, but it's most definitely worse.

 

[RamVA]

The rear multi-link has fairly short lateral control arms, and the shock itself does nothing to locate the wheel. So if you shorten the spring you're effectively using some of the suspension travel to bring the wheel closer to the car. With the short control arms, when you do that you change the angle at the hub, so you add negative camber when you lower the car.

With the MacPherson strut, the coilover assembly locates the suspension at the top. If you lower it you're effectively bringing the car closer to the wheel. Everything happening at the lower end of the suspension stays basically the same, you only get (relatively) minor geometry changes that can be easily remedied.

To understand it better, you can just take the wheels off and jack the car from the brake or the hub. You'll see the difference in deflection (negative camber as viewed at the hub) from front to rear.

One person's opinion - if you lower the car you should figure out a way to add negative camber in the front, or it will push. If you decrease offset (push the wheels out) you will get more torque steer. In both cases increase your tire budget.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

The rear multi-link has fairly short lateral control arms, and the shock itself does nothing to locate the wheel. So if you shorten the spring you're effectively using some of the suspension travel to bring the wheel closer to the car. With the short control arms, when you do that you change the angle at the hub, so you add negative camber when you lower the car.

With the MacPherson strut, the coilover assembly locates the suspension at the top. If you lower it you're effectively bringing the car closer to the wheel. Everything happening at the lower end of the suspension stays basically the same, you only get (relatively) minor geometry changes that can be easily remedied.

To understand it better, you can just take the wheels off and jack the car from the brake or the hub. You'll see the difference in deflection (negative camber as viewed at the hub) from front to rear.

One person's opinion - if you lower the car you should figure out a way to add negative camber in the front, or it will push. If you decrease offset (push the wheels out) you will get more torque steer. In both cases increase your tire budget.

Pretty much this.

The only thing I'll add is that once your lower control arm goes past parallel you stop gaining negative camber and you start gaining positive.

If you think about it, the suspension only travels so far before hitting the bump stop. If your shorten the bump stop and shorten the range that it traveos(or lower it), then while you've gained negative camber static, youve gained total positive dynamic, which is worse. Generally, lowering a car makes it worse... You need more to compensate for lowering.

 

[RamVA]

Generally, lowering a car makes it worse... You need more to compensate for lowering.

I agree with this, for this platform. I would say the same about most smaller Audis, most VWs, 3- and 5-series BMWs. If you're not coilover on both ends you'll deal with some version of this problem. For Beemers the workaround is more negative camber in front, but that's only sensible for a track/race car.

But it's not a general rule - if the car is coilover on both ends you can drop it and adjust the alignment changes out.

For those dropping for aesthetic purposes, no shade from me. If you're trying to make it handle better I would try to find something a bit stiffer but not much lower (0.5" maybe), and then tune the balance with the rear sway bar. I myself am leaving it alone.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I agree with this, for this platform. I would say the same about most smaller Audis, most VWs, 3- and 5-series BMWs. If you're not coilover on both ends you'll deal with some version of this problem. For Beemers the workaround is more negative camber in front, but that's only sensible for a track/race car.

But it's not a general rule - if the car is coilover on both ends you can drop it and adjust the alignment changes out.

For those dropping for aesthetic purposes, no shade from me. If you're trying to make it handle better I would try to find something a bit stiffer but not much lower (0.5" maybe), and then tune the balance with the rear sway bar. I myself am leaving it alone.

Coilovers won't let you escape suspension geo, though. A good coil should have height adjustment separate from preload to keep from ruining your shock travel with height changes, and I think that's what you're implying. Even with coils at both ends you're still fighting the fact the original suspension model is designed to perform best at its stock height. The rear can't even be a true coil, and that's okay too.

The only way to prevent this is to change the inner suspension pickup points and do a lot of roll center adjustment. Maybe verkline or someone can custom make a tube based control arm and subframe to change your pickups points, but you're looking at a $10k rabbit hole to lower a car AND have it perform better overall.

I agree anything more than half an inch is not sensible for performance. Also agree that on any platform with a mcstrut design you run into the same thing. Double wishbone is a whole other ball game and doesn't fall victim to the same issues. That's why double wish is the gold standard for a "sports car" and mcstrut is the compromise for tight engine bay packaging. It took me dropping nearly $15k with 6 or 7 suspension iterations to make peace with the fact I was just going to make my vw worse trying to make it something it's not. Hard lessons to learn sometimes.

 

[optronix]

Coilovers won't let you escape suspension geo, though. A good coil should have height adjustment separate from preload to keep from ruining your shock travel with height changes, and I think that's what you're implying. Even with coils at both ends you're still fighting the fact the original suspension model is designed to perform best at its stock height. The rear can't even be a true coil, and that's okay too.

The only way to prevent this is to change the inner suspension pickup points and do a lot of roll center adjustment. Maybe verkline or someone can custom make a tube based control arm and subframe to change your pickups points, but you're looking at a $10k rabbit hole to lower a car AND have it perform better overall.

I agree anything more than half an inch is not sensible for performance. Also agree that on any platform with a mcstrut design you run into the same thing. Double wishbone is a whole other ball game and doesn't fall victim to the same issues. That's why double wish is the gold standard for a "sports car" and mcstrut is the compromise for tight engine bay packaging. It took me dropping nearly $15k with 6 or 7 suspension iterations to make peace with the fact I was just going to make my vw worse trying to make it something it's not. Hard lessons to learn sometimes.

I agree with all this.

But the car looks so damn good lowered just 1 inch lol.

I'm now actually curious about what effect the camber will have, and a roll bar. I'll do each individually to gauge the effect... pretty much just for fun. Then I'll do coils.

Unless I get bored and get a Blackwing or an M3... sadly I'm finding myself missing RWD lately but that has nothing to do with this car. Most likely I'm just hitting my usual 2 year cycle of wanting another car. I think an ideal solution is to just keep this one and buy a Miata, BRZ, or old Porsche or BMW.

Sponsored