Used Type S for sale already

[jtrader]

I read that's what Canadian dealerships were doing with the CTR since they were not allowed to sell new models above MSRP.

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[optronix]

I read about examples where a dealership would sell the car to itself under the name off an employee or owner then title the car and offer it for sale used, seeding the used market has different specifics, and they can actually in some cases, get more for the car if marked used, vs new for some reason, current market conditions I suppose?

I don't know about dealers selling it to themselves, seems like a pretty complex way to make not that much money. But for the Civic Type R, I could see similar realities. Right before I bought my car I was inches away from buying a brand new, still in transit CTR at 5k over MSRP at around $48-49k- but they had a used one on the lot they (said) wouldn't take less than $57k for. Their story was they were in $55k or so on what they paid for a trade- and I think for a while I'd believe it because you couldn't find one used for less than $60k around here. But the telling part is they'd have given me the new one for just $5k over so I thought prices would be coming down...

But I'm not sure what to believe anymore- when I got my car I was pretty confident prices were going to start becoming reasonable for the CTR and it wouldn't be too difficult to find an ITS at MSRP, but I continue to see examples of dealers asking at least $5k markups, and not too many people telling stories of getting their cars at MSRP. I have to think that people are willing to pay that, so dealers are going to continue to hold out because people keep buying them. I mean, wouldn't you?

What I don't believe is happening right now is dealers paying $50k+ for trade-ins on CTRs, or ITS for that matter. I have to admit that if someone offered me over what I paid for a trade right now, I might consider it but the only thing I'd swap this thing out for is one in Apex Blue and Ebony interior (and a chance at having a quieter wastegate.......). I like that color just ever so slightly more, but if I lose a single penny it's not worth it to me. I love this car.

 

[Ministry]

What I don't believe is happening right now is dealers paying $50k+ for trade-ins on CTRs, or ITS for that matter. I have to admit that if someone offered me over what I paid for a trade right now,

Believe it. I've been actively looking for an ITS and most of my trade in offers for the CTR are well into the $50s at over 8k miles. I wouldn't bother swapping if it wasn't...

 

[optronix]

Believe it. I've been actively looking for an ITS and most of my trade in offers for the CTR are well into the $50s at over 8k miles. I wouldn't bother swapping if it wasn't...

That is just mind blowing. Why? They get trapped into REQUIRING to get $60k out of these cars. It's so damn stupid...

Unless people are legit actually paying that for them. Which in that case, good luck to anyone still in the market, and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy that I got this car for what I did.

Also makes me wonder if I didn't get excruciatingly bent over on my 718 trade value... I don't feel like I did but if they turned around and sold it for over MSRP then I'd feel kind of dumb. I was pretty much convinced that I got a good value at $98k because I was seeing used ones going for less than that... but then again people on Rennlist are still excited to be paying "a modest ADM of $5k" on new allocations when they raised the price by almost $7k year over year so....

The new and used car market is just impossible to get a read on, especially just us random internet bozos without huge quantities of auction and dealer transaction data to sift through. If I could get a hold of that I could do magical things with it...

 

[Ministry]

I would imagine because that's what the market says they're worth (like real estate, stock, michael jordans, wine, or whatever else). It's no magic secret - they take a look at what they've been selling at auction (typically Manheim) or other means and offer accordingly. Here's a snip from MMR on the CTR in June:

 

[Brian G]

I read about examples where a dealership would sell the car to itself under the name off an employee or owner then title the car and offer it for sale used, seeding the used market has different specifics, and they can actually in some cases, get more for the car if marked used, vs new for some reason, current market conditions I suppose?

I have only seen that done at some MSRP dealerships (MSRP only applies to new car sales). They would put it in their loaner fleet for a couple days, then sell it used above MSRP. Some non ADM dealerships can just put add-ons (ie Nitrogen, vin etching,...) to juice their profits if they want and still claim to be an MSRP dealership.

 

[I vtec - do you?]

Are people having a hard time getting these for MSRP? I've basically worked with two dealers. One offered MSRP off the bat. The other was 5k ADM, and then they called me a month later to say they were no longer asking for an ADM and were selling at MSRP. I've put in almost zero legwork and got two dealers at MSRP. I spent a year begging Honda dealers for 5k over on the CTR and never had any luck.

 

[grahm]

I would imagine because that's what the market says they're worth (like real estate, stock, michael jordans, wine, or whatever else). It's no magic secret - they take a look at what they've been selling at auction (typically Manheim) or other means and offer accordingly. Here's a snip from MMR on the CTR in June:

Do you have any more recent data? I’d be surprised if they’re still selling that high. Just this past week I’ve seen two new FL5s (one in CA, one in WA) for $5K over. I think dealers are going to end up losing money on some of these used cars if they don’t sell soon.

 

[optronix]

I would imagine because that's what the market says they're worth (like real estate, stock, michael jordans, wine, or whatever else). It's no magic secret - they take a look at what they've been selling at auction (typically Manheim) or other means and offer accordingly. Here's a snip from MMR on the CTR in June:

Do you have any more recent data? I’d be surprised if they’re still selling that high. Just this past week I’ve seen two new FL5s (one in CA, one in WA) for $5K over. I think dealers are going to end up losing money on some of these used cars if they don’t sell soon.

Exactly, transactions from June don't help here... and I think West Coast (esp. California) will skew the data because dealers are horrid there. If prices are dropping there, they're dropping everywhere. I personally noticed an influx of CTRs in transit in July, and also noticed several cars asking close to $60k sitting on lots for literally months at a time. This data was probably why, but I think there was a change when the ITS launched coupled with higher inventory. As I said this happened in July.

FWIW when I picked my car up in July the sales manager claimed that used car prices dropped 7% in July across the board. Again, I haven't seen that data and assumed it was something only dealers (or otherwise "insiders") had access to.

I know it's lazy, but where did you find that data? I did sincerely think it was gated behind dealers and it wasn't public knowledge. But yeah I guess if it's 3 months old it's fine if it's public knowledge. Especially if dealers can leverage it to squeeze a few more victims.

I've been considering doing some practice with data science tools just as a pet project, if I can find some decent data that might help give me a push.

edit- Something like this. As I understand it this data is at least somewhat self-sourced by people contributing to it... maybe the inventory status is pulled from somewhere but the ADM fees I believe are reported by individuals as they come across them... in any case, the median markup has been consistently dropping over the last few months I've been paying attention. It started at $15k in March, and stayed up there until ~May, where it dipped to $12k before creeping back up in June... but now is at $10k (and the dealer inventory still is WAY, WAY higher than it was in March....). I imagine that's going to continue to trend downwards... but yeah it does at least appear we have a while left of greedy dealers trying to get ADM for the ITS.

https://www.motoringobsession.com/stock/civic-type-r

Actually... I'm convinced you'll be able to get a CTR for MSRP soon, if not now. There are currently 5 cars within a 20 mile radius of my house. Just a month ago when I was looking hard at getting a CTR, there was one, and as I mentioned I negotiated to get that one down to $5k above MSRP. It's going to be harder and harder for dealers to justify the BS claims of "we're only getting two cars this year and the other guy paid ADM" or whatever when there are multiple other cars down the street- even as "special" and "number plate rare" as the CTR is. ITS inventory will catch up.

Just be patient, these cars will be available for MSRP and probably discounts soon.

 

[NoelPR]

Soon the adm fees will go down if acura keeps selling the ITS for less than a CTR.
End result is that the market value of the CTR will trend down too.

Unless Acura plays the same game in general

 

[Ministry]

Do you have any more recent data? I’d be surprised if they’re still selling that high. Just this past week I’ve seen two new FL5s (one in CA, one in WA) for $5K over. I think dealers are going to end up losing money on some of these used cars if they don’t sell soon.

Yeah, I just agreed to terms on an ITS which includes 52k for my CTR trade. I'll post more details later. The market maybe shifting but I certainly haven't experienced it.

 

[kjechel]

Are people having a hard time getting these for MSRP? I've basically worked with two dealers. One offered MSRP off the bat. The other was 5k ADM, and then they called me a month later to say they were no longer asking for an ADM and were selling at MSRP. I've put in almost zero legwork and got two dealers at MSRP. I spent a year begging Honda dealers for 5k over on the CTR and never had any luck.

Where are you? I'm in CA and having no such luck. TIA

 

[Azkyrie6]

Exactly, transactions from June don't help here... and I think West Coast (esp. California) will skew the data because dealers are horrid there. If prices are dropping there, they're dropping everywhere. I personally noticed an influx of CTRs in transit in July, and also noticed several cars asking close to $60k sitting on lots for literally months at a time. This data was probably why, but I think there was a change when the ITS launched coupled with higher inventory. As I said this happened in July.

FWIW when I picked my car up in July the sales manager claimed that used car prices dropped 7% in July across the board. Again, I haven't seen that data and assumed it was something only dealers (or otherwise "insiders") had access to.

I know it's lazy, but where did you find that data? I did sincerely think it was gated behind dealers and it wasn't public knowledge. But yeah I guess if it's 3 months old it's fine if it's public knowledge. Especially if dealers can leverage it to squeeze a few more victims.

I've been considering doing some practice with data science tools just as a pet project, if I can find some decent data that might help give me a push.

edit- Something like this. As I understand it this data is at least somewhat self-sourced by people contributing to it... maybe the inventory status is pulled from somewhere but the ADM fees I believe are reported by individuals as they come across them... in any case, the median markup has been consistently dropping over the last few months I've been paying attention. It started at $15k in March, and stayed up there until ~May, where it dipped to $12k before creeping back up in June... but now is at $10k (and the dealer inventory still is WAY, WAY higher than it was in March....). I imagine that's going to continue to trend downwards... but yeah it does at least appear we have a while left of greedy dealers trying to get ADM for the ITS.

https://www.motoringobsession.com/stock/civic-type-r

Actually... I'm convinced you'll be able to get a CTR for MSRP soon, if not now. There are currently 5 cars within a 20 mile radius of my house. Just a month ago when I was looking hard at getting a CTR, there was one, and as I mentioned I negotiated to get that one down to $5k above MSRP. It's going to be harder and harder for dealers to justify the BS claims of "we're only getting two cars this year and the other guy paid ADM" or whatever when there are multiple other cars down the street- even as "special" and "number plate rare" as the CTR is. ITS inventory will catch up.

Just be patient, these cars will be available for MSRP and probably discounts soon.

Used cars prices have been sliding. There’s car gurus and hagerty to track some data. Keep in mind these are what are listed, not actually the sale price

 

[I vtec - do you?]

Where are you? I'm in CA and having no such luck. TIA

IL

 

[Ministry]

And what are those dealers that are offering you >$50K for the CTR pricing their ITS at? Without that context, your trade-in offer alone isn't really indicative of anything. If its $50K+ on the CTR and an ITS at MSRP, then that's definitely very telling.

Good point. Many dealers in CA did carry heavy markup but I didn't bother negotiating with them. In addition to the ITS I was looking at other cars... (M3, IS500, S5, CT4-BW) with no markup and the trade-in amount was fairly consistent regardless.

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