Back on Track

[Victorofhavoc]

Re-read this post as if you're reading it for the first time, and ask yourself what you would tell the person who wrote this?

You clearly hate the car. Maybe you're just frustrated at this point in time, I've probably been there with a few cars... but man. This is some true grievance shit!

And yeah you made the wrong choice. Money no object, you definitely should have gotten an RS3 for the kind of use case you're describing, manual be damned. For me I've just done the Audi thing already, money was a factor, but the RS3 is pretty much categorically better (besides steering- the ITS does steering very, very well IMO).

I had zero expectations of luxury, it had nothing to do with money. It's actually fine from a luxury standpoint for me because as far as I'm concerned none of that shit matters. I've never given two shits about parts of the interior I don't really even look at, or touch- my wife does, and that's why the MSRP of that Macan was over $108K. Embossed logos on the headrests, seatbelt colors and contrast stitching adds up. For me though? Give me all your plastic dashes and door cards... the ITS interior is still better than the F87 M2 IMHO.

It just never was an illusion I had, that this car was anything more than a gussied up Civic. That part doesn't bother me- because I was also looking at the Type R. Which as we all should know, is actually a Civic.

Mine doesn't sound like it's falling apart though, which apparently yours does... that sucks, but I don't think you should waste any more time on it. There's emotion attached now, and not the good kind. If money isn't an issue, you really should probably move on... and yeah, probably to an RS3.

I drove a couple rs3 in the last 2 years. They have power going for them. Weight, alignment, brakes, and lack of a manual are the reasons I couldn't stomach buying one. My gti was honestly more fun, and if I was into the idea of keeping another dual clutch car around, I would have just kept it. I do miss that car now... I shouldn't have sold it and should just have kept it, despite my wife's argument she didn't want another car in the driveway, lol.

I have two kids, a 4 year old and a newborn. I want a manual that can fit them in and has a decently capable alignment to qualify as a fun car to drive. It's an impossible task, honestly... There's the m3, the crappilac bw, and the its. M2 is out because the back seats are useless. All the muscle cars are out because of weight and they're just generally boring. Elantra is out because it's ugly.

I'm too hard headed and determined to ever just give up. Frustrated with the build quality for certain, but I guess the expectation should have been mid 2010s Kia and not "acura is an entry luxury brand". And at the end of the day, maybe there's some peace in knowing this will always be an overpriced beater and I should just not care. Let me wife slam it into curbs and give the neighbors all a go at learning manual on it. Then after 2 years sell it off as "always adult owned and never vaped in like a subaru" . Or maybe I just give it to my track students to beat up.

One thing is for certain, though... Last acura or Honda product I'm dealing with in this decade. I think Honda peaked in 2005.

Sponsored

 

[PRDE5]

I dont have noise issues with my ITS, but if I did at this stage of my life I would just turn up my stereo several clicks. I don’t want to waste time and get aggravated with a dealership.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Mine certainly has its share of noises and although I try not to let it ruin for me, I can empathize and sympathize with some of what you've mentioned.

That said, I don't have it nearly as bad and the noises I do have, I have learned to tolerate. Fortunately some go away when I push on various panels to "seat" it properly so I think I'll just have to spend some time putting foam in certain spots . It's still not something I think we should have to do for ANY new car that isn't a Kia Forte or some POS like that. The build quality in this car sort of makes some Chevies and Nissans I've owned in the past feel like a Mercedes.

Honestly though, it doesn't sound like it's going to work out for you. There just seems to be too many problems with your specific car and I don't blame you for being sour about it.

It saddens me. I really want this car to work out and I took a plunge going back to jap cars after owning German the last 8 years, but you guys might be right. I doubt I'll sell it immediately, and I'll probably still give the dealership their go at fixing it. At some point I'm sure I'll just cut my losses and walk.

Honestly, the thing that bothers me most now is when I have people walk up with excitement in their face and ask me about how much I love the car. It happens on a near daily basis, and my options are to either lie or say "it rattles... A lot... Like an old Chevy." I don't like lying, so I've crushed a few people's excitement, sadly

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I dont have noise issues with my ITS, but if I did at this stage of my life I would just turn up my stereo several clicks. I don’t want to waste time and get aggravated with a dealership.

I don't have that option...
80% of the time I've got my son in the car. He's 4 and doesn't like loud music or windows open. He'd prefer to just watch bluey which is all just voice audio. That doesn't help with noise awareness.

 

[egxflash]

I don’t want to waste time and get aggravated with a dealership.

This.

I have an appointment this Saturday at mine to deal with a separate issue -- small paint chips on the rear door trim edge that my PPF installer subsequently tried to fix by touching up and putting PPF over. I'm kind of in a more difficult spot now because he messed with it and honestly, the fix sort of works and it's not very obvious at this point.

I just don't want to deal with the dealer jerking me around for what would be a super marginal fix at this point.

Same goes for the rattles. I almost think that taking off and putting panels back on just make the clips worse and opens it up to more noise.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

This.

I have an appointment this Saturday at mine to deal with a separate issue -- small paint chips on the rear door trim edge that my PPF installer subsequently tried to fix by touching up and putting PPF over. I'm kind of in a more difficult spot now because he messed with it and honestly, the fix sort of works and it's not very obvious at this point.

I just don't want to deal with the dealer jerking me around for what would be a super marginal fix at this point.

Same goes for the rattles. I almost think that taking off and putting panels back on just make the clips worse and opens it up to more noise.

I've found broken clips from both factory and from whoever installed the black badges before I got the car. In this case removing panels and fixing the clips might improve things or just make them worse.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I did do this the other day. I can't believe how much trouble I had with the boot collar compared to other people's videos on it. I tried every tool in my garage to grab it, twist it, push, pull, nothing. Eventually I just grabbed a couple butter knives and popped it down.

New shifter feels more solid than the leather one. It feels pretty good, but it's just too small for my hands. I'll probably go with something a bit bigger, heavier, and more round. The fact it's solid metal and ti gives it a pretty great overall feel for what the lever is doing. It definitely feels more connected and accurate going into gear.

 

[optronix]

I did do this the other day. I can't believe how much trouble I had with the boot collar compared to other people's videos on it. I tried every tool in my garage to grab it, twist it, push, pull, nothing. Eventually I just grabbed a couple butter knives and popped it down.

New shifter feels more solid than the leather one. It feels pretty good, but it's just too small for my hands. I'll probably go with something a bit bigger, heavier, and more round. The fact it's solid metal and ti gives it a pretty great overall feel for what the lever is doing. It definitely feels more connected and accurate going into gear.

You're not the only one that had ISSUES with the stupid collar on the shifter. I got the same knob and I do wish it was a bit bigger, and since my wife pointed out the finish is different from anything else inside the car, I've been looking for alternatives lol. I also have a scratch from... SOMETHING that seems like it won't ever go away.

As for the rattles... I think the badges may have a lot, and I mean A LOT to do with that. It's admittedly why I didn't bother with them... and why I was ultra skeptical of even the carbon wing. It just feels like a deeply intrusive process to install some of the accessories on this car, and especially with your reports of broken or missing clips, if what you're experiencing can't just be almost exclusively attributed to the installation of your accessories.

I think it's safe to say after reading your past few responses that you either really did just get a ringer and your car rattles far more than most of us are experiencing, or you're ultra sensitive to them. Could be a bit of both. Because yeah- I've had my car for a while now and I most definitely have USED the car. I have not babied it at all. Dogs, trips to IKEA, propane tanks, road trips, backroads blasts, a half dozen autocross events, 3/4 of an HPDE... the one and only true complaint about the car I have is the buzzing noise under light throttle that a lot of folks have also complained about that most believe is attributed to the wastegate. I admit I'd love it if that noise went away, but overall doesn't really impact how much I love the car. I won't claim that it's completely rattle-free, but no more than any other car I've had, including every last one of my Porsches.

So while your experience is clearly not matching up with your expectations, I really don't think the "German vs Japanese" thing is warranted. Not enough sample size, because I've owned MANY German cars and my experience is that the German build quality is no better, and in fact for any BMW older than the F8x generation, actually complete shit. All of my Japanese cars have been rock solid for reliability and build quality, while the most prolific noises and expensive repair bills were ABSOLUTELY with the German cars.

I realize it may not be a consolation but just offering a different perspective.

And back to something you said previously... you really think a 20 year old E46 is going to be an upgrade from a build quality perspective?

 

[Victorofhavoc]

You're not the only one that had ISSUES with the stupid collar on the shifter. I got the same knob and I do wish it was a bit bigger, and since my wife pointed out the finish is different from anything else inside the car, I've been looking for alternatives lol. I also have a scratch from... SOMETHING that seems like it won't ever go away.

As for the rattles... I think the badges may have a lot, and I mean A LOT to do with that. It's admittedly why I didn't bother with them... and why I was ultra skeptical of even the carbon wing. It just feels like a deeply intrusive process to install some of the accessories on this car, and especially with your reports of broken or missing clips, if what you're experiencing can't just be almost exclusively attributed to the installation of your accessories.

I think it's safe to say after reading your past few responses that you either really did just get a ringer and your car rattles far more than most of us are experiencing, or you're ultra sensitive to them. Could be a bit of both. Because yeah- I've had my car for a while now and I most definitely have USED the car. I have not babied it at all. Dogs, trips to IKEA, propane tanks, road trips, backroads blasts, a half dozen autocross events, 3/4 of an HPDE... the one and only true complaint about the car I have is the buzzing noise under light throttle that a lot of folks have also complained about that most believe is attributed to the wastegate. I admit I'd love it if that noise went away, but overall doesn't really impact how much I love the car. I won't claim that it's completely rattle-free, but no more than any other car I've had, including every last one of my Porsches.

So while your experience is clearly not matching up with your expectations, I really don't think the "German vs Japanese" thing is warranted. Not enough sample size, because I've owned MANY German cars and my experience is that the German build quality is no better, and in fact for any BMW older than the F8x generation, actually complete shit. All of my Japanese cars have been rock solid for reliability and build quality, while the most prolific noises and expensive repair bills were ABSOLUTELY with the German cars.

I realize it may not be a consolation but just offering a different perspective.

And back to something you said previously... you really think a 20 year old E46 is going to be an upgrade from a build quality perspective?

I actually don't mind the difference in finish because I prefer the softer texture of the bead blasted finish and I find the softness of the metal plays well off the softness of the Alcantara. The leather one I find more annoying in fit actually. I also have a scratch, but I know it came from my wedding band... Calling that one "patina"

I fixed a hatch rattle by opening the hatch to do the carbon spoiler and actually finding those broken clips. I understand breaking those stupid, green one time use clips, but not replacing them when you do is just sheer laziness and negligence.

I'm definitely sensitive to noises and certain ones that make sense I can tolerate. Like a pop from dash trim every once in a while as the car warms up and moves I don't find to be a concern. My q7 does that, and even the Bentleys I've been in do it (albeit infrequently). My concern are the noises that don't go away and I know from experience will only get worse with time. If something is vibrating to cause a buzz or repetitive rattle it will only get worse with time. I've owned 3 subaru, so I am no stranger to rattles. Those cars are often pitiful. Forester xt with a door vibrating and rattling so badly in winter that you keep a stick in the car to hold down the door card so it doesn't drive you mad... ? Been there!

The wastegate rattle I found already. It's a poor mounting design of the wastegate actuator to the wastegate itself. No room to tighten the pinch bolts in there, and it's too high temp to use felt, wax, or similar. It could be fixable by probably adding some material between the pinch bolts to hold the clip in place better.

I discovered this morning my steering rack clicking at low speeds is a result of the cable reel. Apparently these go a lot on Honda and acura, .

I should probably clarify what I mean by build quality because I'm not quite sure we're on the same page here. If I see two panels that don't quite fit together or bumpers that are unevenly aligned, I consider this to be part of a build problem. This is a quality issue as far as how the vehicle was put together and inspected after the fact. If I see two panels that meet but one is rounded and the other is more flat, so the alignment will always be off (like our fender to front cowl area on ALL Integra) that's a design issue. Design issues can cause build issues, but I don't blame build for that exactly. Now if those two panels don't meet properly because someone couldn't be bothered to tighten two sides slowly to ensure spacing is even, that's a build issue. It stems from design because the engineers who designed it didn't think of how the assembly was going to happen when they tried to save a few beans there, but it's a build issue because they didn't take the time to align and check.

I've found a lot of design issues on German cars (why does the 911 dead pedal eat so much into your foot space!!?? And why in God's hell did vw decide to make water pumps out of two joined plastic housings with a vertical seam when assembled??), but I have rarely found true build issues.

Quality is a whole other conversation that I don't think is as clear. One man's high quality plastic is another's "why didn't they just slap some leather on it?"

I've driven old, beaten e46 cars on track as well as many nicer and modestly kept e46 cars on the street. That gen m3 with 50k miles on it i didn't have much issue with. I drove one around for a few weeks for a friend and I never noticed any noises from windows or doors. The doors closed with an authoritative thunk and no window or door card/panels rattled. Admittedly, it was a different time then. There were far fewer random cables, harnesses, clips, airbags, sensors, and other electronics that they had to route through the body, and this meant fewer things to make noise. That's why I didn't end up getting an e46 this time... Two little ones in back means I actually appreciate some of the safety tech, but not the nannies.

Since you've driven your car on track, did you have any issues with the lane warning functions intervening? I could have sworn mine was off this morning and for some reason it jerked the wheel on me as I was passing an exit lane. I didn't go over the line, but the camera got confused and it tried to send me down the exit lane. If this doesn't go fully off with traction control off, it might be a bit of a hazard on track. I know several organizations around me that specifically state some cars aren't allowed because they can't fully disable autobraking or lane assist (and it does apply to specific Porsche). Maybe some tape over the camera is the cure . I hate all the smart cruise stuff as is, on all cars.

 

[optronix]

I actually don't mind the difference in finish because I prefer the softer texture of the bead blasted finish and I find the softness of the metal plays well off the softness of the Alcantara. The leather one I find more annoying in fit actually. I also have a scratch, but I know it came from my wedding band... Calling that one "patina"

I fixed a hatch rattle by opening the hatch to do the carbon spoiler and actually finding those broken clips. I understand breaking those stupid, green one time use clips, but not replacing them when you do is just sheer laziness and negligence.

I'm definitely sensitive to noises and certain ones that make sense I can tolerate. Like a pop from dash trim every once in a while as the car warms up and moves I don't find to be a concern. My q7 does that, and even the Bentleys I've been in do it (albeit infrequently). My concern are the noises that don't go away and I know from experience will only get worse with time. If something is vibrating to cause a buzz or repetitive rattle it will only get worse with time. I've owned 3 subaru, so I am no stranger to rattles. Those cars are often pitiful. Forester xt with a door vibrating and rattling so badly in winter that you keep a stick in the car to hold down the door card so it doesn't drive you mad... ? Been there!

The wastegate rattle I found already. It's a poor mounting design of the wastegate actuator to the wastegate itself. No room to tighten the pinch bolts in there, and it's too high temp to use felt, wax, or similar. It could be fixable by probably adding some material between the pinch bolts to hold the clip in place better.

I discovered this morning my steering rack clicking at low speeds is a result of the cable reel. Apparently these go a lot on Honda and acura, .

I should probably clarify what I mean by build quality because I'm not quite sure we're on the same page here. If I see two panels that don't quite fit together or bumpers that are unevenly aligned, I consider this to be part of a build problem. This is a quality issue as far as how the vehicle was put together and inspected after the fact. If I see two panels that meet but one is rounded and the other is more flat, so the alignment will always be off (like our fender to front cowl area on ALL Integra) that's a design issue. Design issues can cause build issues, but I don't blame build for that exactly. Now if those two panels don't meet properly because someone couldn't be bothered to tighten two sides slowly to ensure spacing is even, that's a build issue. It stems from design because the engineers who designed it didn't think of how the assembly was going to happen when they tried to save a few beans there, but it's a build issue because they didn't take the time to align and check.

I've found a lot of design issues on German cars (why does the 911 dead pedal eat so much into your foot space!!?? And why in God's hell did vw decide to make water pumps out of two joined plastic housings with a vertical seam when assembled??), but I have rarely found true build issues.

Quality is a whole other conversation that I don't think is as clear. One man's high quality plastic is another's "why didn't they just slap some leather on it?"

I've driven old, beaten e46 cars on track as well as many nicer and modestly kept e46 cars on the street. That gen m3 with 50k miles on it i didn't have much issue with. I drove one around for a few weeks for a friend and I never noticed any noises from windows or doors. The doors closed with an authoritative thunk and no window or door card/panels rattled. Admittedly, it was a different time then. There were far fewer random cables, harnesses, clips, airbags, sensors, and other electronics that they had to route through the body, and this meant fewer things to make noise. That's why I didn't end up getting an e46 this time... Two little ones in back means I actually appreciate some of the safety tech, but not the nannies.

Since you've driven your car on track, did you have any issues with the lane warning functions intervening? I could have sworn mine was off this morning and for some reason it jerked the wheel on me as I was passing an exit lane. I didn't go over the line, but the camera got confused and it tried to send me down the exit lane. If this doesn't go fully off with traction control off, it might be a bit of a hazard on track. I know several organizations around me that specifically state some cars aren't allowed because they can't fully disable autobraking or lane assist (and it does apply to specific Porsche). Maybe some tape over the camera is the cure . I hate all the smart cruise stuff as is, on all cars.

The panel misalignment is a valid gripe. Mine fortunately is very good; but also why I am very reluctant to take the bumper off because I feel like it'll never be the same again. I agree, that's a design issue.

Paint mismatches from the factory are also why I decided to steer clear of white, which would have been my first choice. (Red was actually my 3rd choice behind Apex Blue).

All this to say you're not wrong, Honda/Acura could have done a better job in many regards but... they had to build to a budget and I'm still glad this car exists, let alone it is as good as it is to drive. All tolerable compromises IMO... and I'm still convinced you got a "lemon" in the sense it's like "death from 1000 cuts" with all the minor annoyances adding up to a general sense of "fuck this car".

As for BMW, my experience with an E36 M3 was disastrous. But my dumb ass didn't learn and I bought a second one- which was FAR, FAR WORSE. Drivetrain was a gem; daresay a masterpiece. But everything else was held together with bubble gum and shoelaces. Rattles... lol. The fucking door handle fell off, the brake cooling ducts in the front bumper fell off, the headliner sagged, the radio was hell on earth, it leaked like a sieve... I'll just stop before I get mad again. This was the first car btw, the second was 100% my fault because I didn't look hard enough for rust and the car could have been scrapped when I bought it. I skipped the E46 generation, but had an E92 335i that was much better from an interior quality perspective, but had many random drivetrain gremlins, and an even more terrible noise from the wastegate than the ITS did (and apparently mine wasn't as bad as some others). My F82 was actually marvelous, zero issues and I LOVED that car. But I only had it for ~2 years before I got bit by the P car itch. F8x is by far my favorite generation of BMW, and IMHO the one and only sedan that looks better than the ITS.

For P cars, I've had my share of issues too but nowhere near as bad as the BMWs. My main gripes was a godawful dash rattle in a 981 Boxster GTS I had that was never completely diagnosed or repaired... and now two consecutive custom order Macans that had eerily similar noises in the driver's seats. The first one was due to untorqued bolts holding the seat to the floorboard, the newest one remains undiagnosed because I drive it less and my wife doesn't notice it.

As for the track, the "pedal dance", combined with manually turning off all the driver assists led to a day of trouble free wonderfulness. Zero issues with nannies interfering. Probably my absolute favorite day in a car, ever. It's just so easy, and FUN, to drive on a racetrack. Accessible is an understatement; I'm just barely over a true novice when it comes to track experience and I was dogging the hell out of much more experienced drivers, in what should have been faster cars all day, effortlessly. The car just did exactly what I wanted it to do with no hesitation or surprises. I don't think that pure lap times are what this car is about on a track; it's just about confidently extracting every ounce of potential out of it consistently lap after lap. Brake pedal still felt pretty good after 3 full 20 minute sessions, tires were just starting to get a little slippery, no issues with overheating at all and it was a pretty warm late summer/early fall day (~81 degrees ambient IIRC). Just a wonderful car to take on a race track, and it was bone stock at the time.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

The panel misalignment is a valid gripe. Mine fortunately is very good; but also why I am very reluctant to take the bumper off because I feel like it'll never be the same again. I agree, that's a design issue.

Paint mismatches from the factory are also why I decided to steer clear of white, which would have been my first choice. (Red was actually my 3rd choice behind Apex Blue).

All this to say you're not wrong, Honda/Acura could have done a better job in many regards but... they had to build to a budget and I'm still glad this car exists, let alone it is as good as it is to drive. All tolerable compromises IMO... and I'm still convinced you got a "lemon" in the sense it's like "death from 1000 cuts" with all the minor annoyances adding up to a general sense of "fuck this car".

As for BMW, my experience with an E36 M3 was disastrous. But my dumb ass didn't learn and I bought a second one- which was FAR, FAR WORSE. Drivetrain was a gem; daresay a masterpiece. But everything else was held together with bubble gum and shoelaces. Rattles... lol. The fucking door handle fell off, the brake cooling ducts in the front bumper fell off, the headliner sagged, the radio was hell on earth, it leaked like a sieve... I'll just stop before I get mad again. This was the first car btw, the second was 100% my fault because I didn't look hard enough for rust and the car could have been scrapped when I bought it. I skipped the E46 generation, but had an E92 335i that was much better from an interior quality perspective, but had many random drivetrain gremlins, and an even more terrible noise from the wastegate than the ITS did (and apparently mine wasn't as bad as some others). My F82 was actually marvelous, zero issues and I LOVED that car. But I only had it for ~2 years before I got bit by the P car itch. F8x is by far my favorite generation of BMW, and IMHO the one and only sedan that looks better than the ITS.

For P cars, I've had my share of issues too but nowhere near as the BMWs. My main gripes was a godawful dash rattle in a 981 Boxster GTS I had that was never completely diagnosed or repaired... and now two consecutive custom order Macans that had eerily similar noises in the driver's seats. The first one was due to untorqued bolts holding the seat to the floorboard, the newest one remains undiagnosed because I drive it less and my wife doesn't notice it.

As for the track, the "pedal dance", combined with manually turning off all the driver assists led to a day of trouble free wonderfulness. Zero issues with nannies interfering. Probably my absolute favorite day in a car, ever. It's just so easy, and FUN, to drive on a racetrack. Accessible is an understatement; I'm just barely over a true novice when it comes to track experience and I was dogging the hell out of much more experienced drivers, in what should have been faster cars all day, effortlessly. The car just did exactly what I wanted it to do with no hesitation or surprises. I don't think that pure lap times are what this car is about on a track; it's just about confidently extracting every ounce of potential out of it consistently lap after lap. Brake pedal still felt pretty good after 3 full 20 minute sessions, tires were just starting to get a little slippery, no issues with overheating at all and it was a pretty warm late summer/early fall day (~81 degrees ambient IIRC). Just a wonderful car to take on a race track, and it was bone stock at the time.

When you say manually disable the driver aids, what do you mean? I turned everything off from the steering wheel/dash and it still kicked in randomly. It has done this a few times with lanes it thinks it sees. I have written code for these kinds of cameras before so I have a good idea of why it's doing what it's doing and seeing mystery lanes, but I would think that when it's off it should be totally off.

This car really should be about decent lap times. I mean the spec sheet for it is about as aggressive as a car can get at a clubsport type level...
350mm two piece brakes with brembo m pads
Alignment factory capable of -1.8 camber, castor in the low 7* range
10:1 weight to power ratio
Stock 9.5" and 265mm tires
Decent mechanical LSD
Tight gears on the manual trans
Airflow to brakes, exhaust for heat and downforce in the hood, canards to help direct airflow over the skirt
3200lbs

That's a TT3 or TT4 car in nasa spec depending on the tire you run. It should be in some competition with my Z, an e46 purpose built car, a cayman s, spec boxster, mustang gt, c6 vette, etc on the same tire.

I've rented a track in Iowa September 23rd. I haven't been to that track in almost a year and typically I'll do a private day with a friend or two or doing instruction. I've driven a 911 gts, 718c gts, my z racecar (on cycled out Hoosier), mustang gt, cayman gt4, my gti, and about 2 dozen or so other cars on this track, so it'll be fun to get a feel for the its. I expect it to keep pace with my buddy in his gti, and hopefully if my other friend gets his cayman gt4 rs in time we'll have a go at it and see who the better driver is .

My general rule on almost all cars except Porsche gt cars is "track pads and track fluids, then alignment". I'll bring a set of carbotech xp10 and some titanium shims out with me, give the stock stuff a run or two, and then switch to the high temp stuff. I'm curious how many laps I'll get from stock, but my suspicion is something like 3 or 4 before I've cooked them. Stock mustang gt pads and stock fiesta st pads will last one lap . My stock gti pads last almost 2 laps, lol. Brand new c8 vette... 3 laps, but the car has so little feel in the brake pedal that it was very hard to tell where brake fade began. You'd just suddenly have much longer brake zones and have to account for it way early on.

 

[ABPDE5]

I think he is referring to the pedal dance (maintenance mode). It consists of the following sequence:

1. Brake in (parking brake off) > toggle traction control off / on
2. Parking brake on (brake out / off) > toggle traction control off / on
3. Brake in & parking brake on > toggle traction control off / on

(essentially you are toggling traction control 3 times... once with just the brake engaged, once with just the parking brake engaged, and once with both the brake and parking brake engaged.)

If you complete the sequence correctly, the right info section of the dash will display "VSA". This will disable all assists, TC, etc. (including brake-based vectoring... my understanding is it's essential for saving the rear pads on track; additionally, the car shows its true character and actually gives you the lift-off oversteer you want without fuss).

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I think he is referring to the pedal dance (maintenance mode). It consists of the following sequence:

1. Brake in (parking brake off) > toggle traction control off / on
2. Parking brake on (brake out / off) > toggle traction control off / on
3. Brake in & parking brake on > toggle traction control off / on

(essentially you are toggling traction control 3 times... once with just the brake engaged, once with just the parking brake engaged, and once with both the brake and parking brake engaged.)

If you complete the sequence correctly, the right info section of the dash will display "VSA". This will disable all assists, TC, etc. (including brake-based vectoring... my understanding is it's essential for saving the rear pads on track; additionally, the car shows its true character and actually gives you the lift-off oversteer you want without fuss).

I gotcha.

Yeah I planned on trying both the standard vsa off and the pedal dance. Downside to the pedal dance is that the vsa off seems to keep flashing at me, covering up any useful data I'd care about from the little pseudo gauge on the right.

We'll see how it goes!

I usually tell my more novice students to leave tc on, because if it's flashing at them and "causing understeer" that typically means they've gone in too hot. Some cars you just have to, and that does often apply to fwd. I'm really curious how this car will perform without the pedal dance to see if I can keep the useful info in view. If the only way to fully turn off driver aid nannies is the pedal dance, it is what it is.

I've driven a couple type r on track, though. I don't recall how off the vsa was, but the cars were extremely oversteery. I'm used to trail braking heavily and doing 80% of rotation under brake, so it was a bit surprising they'd toss the rear end at anything over 60% pressure in the last 40ft to the apex. I know both cars were on track pads, so maybe they also had very aggressive rear pads? I guess we'll see how it handles once I put the xp10s on.

 

[ABPDE5]

I gotcha.

Yeah I planned on trying both the standard vsa off and the pedal dance. Downside to the pedal dance is that the vsa off seems to keep flashing at me, covering up any useful data I'd care about from the little pseudo gauge on the right.

We'll see how it goes!

I usually tell my more novice students to leave tc on, because if it's flashing at them and "causing understeer" that typically means they've gone in too hot. Some cars you just have to, and that does often apply to fwd. I'm really curious how this car will perform without the pedal dance to see if I can keep the useful info in view. If the only way to fully turn off driver aid nannies is the pedal dance, it is what it is.

I've driven a couple type r on track, though. I don't recall how off the vsa was, but the cars were extremely oversteery. I'm used to trail braking heavily and doing 80% of rotation under brake, so it was a bit surprising they'd toss the rear end at anything over 60% pressure in the last 40ft to the apex. I know both cars were on track pads, so maybe they also had very aggressive rear pads? I guess we'll see how it handles once I put the xp10s on.

Unfortunately, it does obscure the gauge on the right. You can temporarily "hide" the VSA message via the scroll wheel for the gauge on the steering wheel (like if you want to check tire pressure), but the VSA message takes precedence and will overlay it after a bit.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Unfortunately, it does obscure the gauge on the right. You can temporarily "hide" the VSA message via the scroll wheel for the gauge on the steering wheel (like if you want to check tire pressure), but the VSA message takes precedence and will overlay it after a bit.

That's what I've noticed. Thanks for the confirmation! Really I care about coolant temp, oil temp, and fuel. The rest is mostly irrelevant unless viewing back through video.

I'll check to see if I can pick up throttle position, brake position, and steering axis from typical obd2 metrics. I can overlay that data later if I can grab it. However, I believe this ecu is the Bosch 16 setup, and it's pretty annoying about trying to pull this data unless you just buy their vanilla ecu.

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