Back on Track

[Victorofhavoc]

Great... Weather slowly changing and 2 of my rattles/buzzes came back with a vengeance!

The infotainment is buzzing again, and now even on the smoothest of roads. It's much worse than before as well. Loud enough that music at vol 10 does not drown it out. Even worse it makes much more noise under heavier load and mid rpm so I'm back to my dash squealing/rattling under acceleration.

Also, now all of the door glass and both b pillar shoulder strap adjusters are clicking/rattling with any roughness in the road or small bumps.

I can't decide if I should go back to the dealer or just try to fix it myself. I'm not sure the dealer is worth the headache.

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[optronix]

Not sure about your dealer, but as far as I'm concerned, it is absolutely a waste of time and effort for me to let them try to track down noises.

At about 8k miles now, and they're stacking up.

I wouldn't say any of them are catastrophic... but overall I can say that the honeymoon phase has finally ended and the noises are just part of the ownership experience. It is one of the noisier cars I've had for sure...

But also, I will still maintain that if a luxury experience is what you're after, this isn't the car for that... so you can absolutely pine for the silence of your GTI, and I get it- but I still would not exchange a quiet-as-the-grave cabin GTI for this car. Nor anything else at this price point.

All that being said- what HAS actually grown on me in quite a negative way is the torque steer. I honestly don't recall noticing it this much until recently- and I did have the car lowered a few short months ago so that may definitely be a contributing factor. Between the wheels and springs, or maybe just finally getting to me now that I have not been driving it as much and allowing me to notice it more... I'm pining for rear-wheel drive.

I'm not in a rush to move on from it by ANY means... but I have been eyeing the CT4-V Blackwing. HARD. Of course, the way I'd want it spec'd it would cost just shy of 100 grand, so nearly 2x the price point... on a long enough timeline, I may just end up in one.

I'd throw in the dealership experience as another reason on top of torque steer and minor quibbles about build quality as a reason to consider the Caddy over the Integra... but I really don't think Cadillac would offer any better dealer experience than Acura.

I'm typing this knowing I'll be dropping my wife's Macan off at the dealer tomorrow and driving off in another Porsche loaner, with an expectation they will actually correct the noises I'm dealing with on that car.

If only the RS3 was available in manual!... but honestly, probably not a small amount of torque steer in that car either. I noticed some in my S3 but not as flagrant. If manual wasn't a requirement, perhaps an S3 would be a great choice for something around this price point with a higher standard of build quality and better dealership experience... at the cost of some driving dynamics. But I really did love my S3 for what it was- which at the time was a perfect augmentation to a 981 Boxster GTS. I really never should have deviated from that garage setup...

 

[ABPDE5]

Not sure about your dealer, but as far as I'm concerned, it is absolutely a waste of time and effort for me to let them try to track down noises.

At about 8k miles now, and they're stacking up.

I wouldn't say any of them are catastrophic... but overall I can say that the honeymoon phase has finally ended and the noises are just part of the ownership experience. It is one of the noisier cars I've had for sure...

But also, I will still maintain that if a luxury experience is what you're after, this isn't the car for that... so you can absolutely pine for the silence of your GTI, and I get it- but I still would not exchange a quiet-as-the-grave cabin GTI for this car. Nor anything else at this price point.

All that being said- what HAS actually grown on me in quite a negative way is the torque steer. I honestly don't recall noticing it this much until recently- and I did have the car lowered a few short months ago so that may definitely be a contributing factor. Between the wheels and springs, or maybe just finally getting to me now that I have not been driving it as much and allowing me to notice it more... I'm pining for rear-wheel drive.

I'm not in a rush to move on from it by ANY means... but I have been eyeing the CT4-V Blackwing. HARD. Of course, the way I'd want it spec'd it would cost just shy of 100 grand, so nearly 2x the price point... on a long enough timeline, I may just end up in one.

I'd throw in the dealership experience as another reason on top of torque steer and minor quibbles about build quality as a reason to consider the Caddy over the Integra... but I really don't think Cadillac would offer any better dealer experience than Acura.

I'm typing this knowing I'll be dropping my wife's Macan off at the dealer tomorrow and driving off in another Porsche loaner, with an expectation they will actually correct the noises I'm dealing with on that car.

If only the RS3 was available in manual!... but honestly, probably not a small amount of torque steer in that car either. I noticed some in my S3 but not as flagrant. If manual wasn't a requirement, perhaps an S3 would be a great choice for something around this price point with a higher standard of build quality and better dealership experience... at the cost of some driving dynamics. But I really did love my S3 for what it was- which at the time was a perfect augmentation to a 981 Boxster GTS. I really never should have deviated from that garage setup...

Based on all of your feedback, I can't help but think that springs were a mistake. We already know that they alter the geometry in a negative way, and I really doubt any of these manufacturers did sufficient testing re: height, rates, etc. (not to mention changing spring rates probably calls for a damper adjustment, and right now that's not possible). Significant development was spent on the stock suspension for these cars, and the tuning on the DE5 was already done well. I understand the visual appeal, but for driving and performance, I think it's high-end coils or nothing.

 

[StingertimeNC]

I don't really notice anything negative on the track or around town. I can see it being much more of an issue in auto cross though. Lower speeds, tighter corners, etc. Combo of the drop and the lower offset wheels? (which of course I have also) but I just don't drive the car hard in 1st or 2nd gear. 3rd gear and up no big deal.

Or am I just not in tune enough to notice?

I did have a Mazdaspeed 3 and that car was crazy! LOL.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Not sure about your dealer, but as far as I'm concerned, it is absolutely a waste of time and effort for me to let them try to track down noises.

At about 8k miles now, and they're stacking up.

I wouldn't say any of them are catastrophic... but overall I can say that the honeymoon phase has finally ended and the noises are just part of the ownership experience. It is one of the noisier cars I've had for sure...

But also, I will still maintain that if a luxury experience is what you're after, this isn't the car for that... so you can absolutely pine for the silence of your GTI, and I get it- but I still would not exchange a quiet-as-the-grave cabin GTI for this car. Nor anything else at this price point.

All that being said- what HAS actually grown on me in quite a negative way is the torque steer. I honestly don't recall noticing it this much until recently- and I did have the car lowered a few short months ago so that may definitely be a contributing factor. Between the wheels and springs, or maybe just finally getting to me now that I have not been driving it as much and allowing me to notice it more... I'm pining for rear-wheel drive.

I'm not in a rush to move on from it by ANY means... but I have been eyeing the CT4-V Blackwing. HARD. Of course, the way I'd want it spec'd it would cost just shy of 100 grand, so nearly 2x the price point... on a long enough timeline, I may just end up in one.

I'd throw in the dealership experience as another reason on top of torque steer and minor quibbles about build quality as a reason to consider the Caddy over the Integra... but I really don't think Cadillac would offer any better dealer experience than Acura.

I'm typing this knowing I'll be dropping my wife's Macan off at the dealer tomorrow and driving off in another Porsche loaner, with an expectation they will actually correct the noises I'm dealing with on that car.

If only the RS3 was available in manual!... but honestly, probably not a small amount of torque steer in that car either. I noticed some in my S3 but not as flagrant. If manual wasn't a requirement, perhaps an S3 would be a great choice for something around this price point with a higher standard of build quality and better dealership experience... at the cost of some driving dynamics. But I really did love my S3 for what it was- which at the time was a perfect augmentation to a 981 Boxster GTS. I really never should have deviated from that garage setup...

It's funny you mention torque steer in the s3. Every awd driver would argue there's none, but both the rs3 and s3 I found to be pretty "heavy" due to the awd, and since the s3 primarily drives the front, it will cook one of the fronts due to the open diff that's up there. The rear has the haldex diff which does work as a diff. The rs3 does add a haldex in front as well and that helps a lot.

I think the "torque steer" I've felt in this car is fairly mild. The bigger issue I have with it is not the amount of torque steer (because that's honestly quite mild), but rather the engagement of the diff is a bit on the abrupt side. That's what causes some of the jerkiness with power on, but once that jerk is gone, it's not consistently trying to pull away in a particular direction unless it slips again. It might wear in a bit over time, or it might get worse.

My gti had the pseudo-mechanical diff that actuated with pressure like haldex, but also had a mechanical clutch actuation. It honestly cured torque steer unless you were pushing 360whp+. Jeremy Clarkson called it magic in 2014 and bought one for himself as a part time daily, and he's not wrong. It was definitely magic.

You're also absolutely right that this car is more lively than a gti. The gti takes about 10k in mods to get to the same suspension alignment, setup, aggressiveness, and stage of power as this car. At that points it's just as lively and just as capable, but it still feels more numb on steering and brake (the two most important outputs). It also can't stuff anywhere near as much tire and its base aero is nowhere near as good.

I will probably add 40 to 60lbs of sound deadening and vibration absorption material to see if I can tame some of these quality issues.

I looked at the ct4 but backseat was basically useless for a kid carseat or two. That's why I looked at the m3 and ct5, but ct5 insurance are just whacko. The m3 insurance costs were half as much, lol. Honestly, if you don't have kids in carseats, have you considered the m2? It's kind of the modern day e46 m3, and it's setup makes it quite lively. It must be driven at 104% to be fast though. It rewards the ham handed more than the baker. The new one's lower bumper though...

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I don't really notice anything negative on the track or around town. I can see it being much more of an issue in auto cross though. Lower speeds, tighter corners, etc. Combo of the drop and the lower offset wheels? (which of course I have also) but I just don't drive the car hard in 1st or 2nd gear. 3rd gear and up no big deal.

Or am I just not in tune enough to notice?

I did have a Mazdaspeed 3 and that car was crazy! LOL.

See my comment about lsd engagement. I think in autox the lsd engagement would also be far more noticeable due to turn in aggressiveness.

 

[optronix]

Based on all of your feedback, I can't help but think that springs were a mistake. We already know that they alter the geometry in a negative way, and I really doubt any of these manufacturers did sufficient testing re: height, rates, etc. (not to mention changing spring rates probably calls for a damper adjustment, and right now that's not possible). Significant development was spent on the stock suspension for these cars, and the tuning on the DE5 was already done well. I understand the visual appeal, but for driving and performance, I think it's high-end coils or nothing.

If I'm the only sample reporting these issues with the springs then I think that qualifies as an anomaly. I don't actually regret the springs! The car makes me happy every time I look at it, and it has gotten significantly more attention. They make a substantial aesthetic impact. I just can't deny that the torque steer has been aggravating me much more recently than it has in the past year and a half I've owned the car. For all I know it could be the tires. I have NOT been gentle on them, and according to some other data available in other threads on this very site, they may very well be heat-cycled out and virtually useless.

I'll be putting the OEM tires with DWS06+ back on soon, that should give me a good litmus test. If it still irritates me even at the factory offset, then I'd feel more comfortable attributing some negative aspects to the springs.

It's funny you mention torque steer in the s3. Every awd driver would argue there's none, but both the rs3 and s3 I found to be pretty "heavy" due to the awd, and since the s3 primarily drives the front, it will cook one of the fronts due to the open diff that's up there. The rear has the haldex diff which does work as a diff. The rs3 does add a haldex in front as well and that helps a lot.

I think the "torque steer" I've felt in this car is fairly mild. The bigger issue I have with it is not the amount of torque steer (because that's honestly quite mild), but rather the engagement of the diff is a bit on the abrupt side. That's what causes some of the jerkiness with power on, but once that jerk is gone, it's not consistently trying to pull away in a particular direction unless it slips again. It might wear in a bit over time, or it might get worse.

My gti had the pseudo-mechanical diff that actuated with pressure like haldex, but also had a mechanical clutch actuation. It honestly cured torque steer unless you were pushing 360whp+. Jeremy Clarkson called it magic in 2014 and bought one for himself as a part time daily, and he's not wrong. It was definitely magic.

You're also absolutely right that this car is more lively than a gti. The gti takes about 10k in mods to get to the same suspension alignment, setup, aggressiveness, and stage of power as this car. At that points it's just as lively and just as capable, but it still feels more numb on steering and brake (the two most important outputs). It also can't stuff anywhere near as much tire and its base aero is nowhere near as good.

I will probably add 40 to 60lbs of sound deadening and vibration absorption material to see if I can tame some of these quality issues.

I looked at the ct4 but backseat was basically useless for a kid carseat or two. That's why I looked at the m3 and ct5, but ct5 insurance are just whacko. The m3 insurance costs were half as much, lol. Honestly, if you don't have kids in carseats, have you considered the m2? It's kind of the modern day e46 m3, and it's setup makes it quite lively. It must be driven at 104% to be fast though. It rewards the ham handed more than the baker. The new one's lower bumper though...

Maybe that's what it is- the engagement of the diff. The moments that truly make me shake my head recently are when I'm changing lanes and get on the power. The car just feels like it wants to do something other than what I'm telling it- and I HATE that sensation. It probably was the same sensation my last time out at autocross that just felt "off". Maybe me classifying this sensation as "torque steer" is inaccurate. But it gets on my nerves nonetheless.

I'll almost certainly be putting on new tires in the spring (unless I end up getting a CT4-V), I'll report back then. I'll also probably be correcting the camber issues at the same time. Hope is not lost, but I think @ABPDE5 is onto something; deviating from the factory setup can send you chasing your tail to get it all right again. I didn't have ANY issues with this car's driving dynamics until I started messing with it. That in and of itself is quite irritating too, though-many people who buy this car don't intend to leave it stock...

As for your mention of the M2, I'd have an F87 M2 Competition (or more likely, CS) if I didn't need to get my dog in the car, and for that I more or less require rear doors. I took a strong look at the G87 M2 nonetheless, and it's an appealing car for sure. Personally I just think I'd prefer an F87 but the G87 looks good in person and from what I understand is very engaging to drive.

The CT5 is very interesting but I feel like it would just be too big and I'd get bored of it quickly once the novelty of the V8 wore off. I didn't even think about insurance- there has to be some data to back that up lol. CT5 drivers may be an archetype.

If it wasn't a 10 year old BMW (and I didn't already have one in the past), I'd also deeply consider an F80 M3. But I still think the Acura is more fun to drive, if not as capable. They're a tie for aesthetics. I love me an F80/F82.

 

[ABPDE5]

If I'm the only sample reporting these issues with the springs then I think that qualifies as an anomaly. I don't actually regret the springs! The car makes me happy every time I look at it, and it has gotten significantly more attention. They make a substantial aesthetic impact. I just can't deny that the torque steer has been aggravating me much more recently than it has in the past year and a half I've owned the car. For all I know it could be the tires. I have NOT been gentle on them, and according to some other data available in other threads on this very site, they may very well be heat-cycled out and virtually useless.

I'll be putting the OEM tires with DWS06+ back on soon, that should give me a good litmus test. If it still irritates me even at the factory offset, then I'd feel more comfortable attributing some negative aspects to the springs.



Maybe that's what it is- the engagement of the diff. The moments that truly make me shake my head recently are when I'm changing lanes and get on the power. The car just feels like it wants to do something other than what I'm telling it- and I HATE that sensation. It probably was the same sensation my last time out at autocross that just felt "off". Maybe me classifying this sensation as "torque steer" is inaccurate. But it gets on my nerves nonetheless.

I'll almost certainly be putting on new tires in the spring (unless I end up getting a CT4-V), I'll report back then. I'll also probably be correcting the camber issues at the same time. Hope is not lost, but I think @ABPDE5 is onto something; deviating from the factory setup can send you chasing your tail to get it all right again. I didn't have ANY issues with this car's driving dynamics until I started messing with it. That in and of itself is quite irritating too, though-many people who buy this car don't intend to leave it stock...

As for your mention of the M2, I'd have an F87 M2 Competition (or more likely, CS) if I didn't need to get my dog in the car, and for that I more or less require rear doors. I took a strong look at the G87 M2 nonetheless, and it's an appealing car for sure. Personally I just think I'd prefer an F87 but the G87 looks good in person and from what I understand is very engaging to drive.

The CT5 is very interesting but I feel like it would just be too big and I'd get bored of it quickly once the novelty of the V8 wore off. I didn't even think about insurance- there has to be some data to back that up lol. CT5 drivers may be an archetype.

If it wasn't a 10 year old BMW (and I didn't already have one in the past), I'd also deeply consider an F80 M3. But I still think the Acura is more fun to drive, if not as capable. They're a tie for aesthetics. I love me an F80/F82.

People are sensitive to and fixate on different aspects of the driving experience, though; they also drive in different ways, and many people are loathe to accept that a product they've purchased might not be what they hoped it would (I'm not trying to say anything definitive, just that these are all potential factors that might impact what we see for feedback).

I wonder, too -- assuming this is under sudden power (re: diff engaging) -- if the stock rear motor mount is showing its weaknesses after being put through some heavier driving scenarios. RMM options for this car all seem to get rave reviews re: improving "smoothness" / "directness", for lack of better terms, under acceleration, in addition to helping put power down. Some of them reportedly are quite mild re: NVH (PRL in particular). Having said that, all those anecdotal reviews are subject to the same concerns as those for springs, so... who's to say?

 

[Victorofhavoc]

People are sensitive to and fixate on different aspects of the driving experience, though; they also drive in different ways, and many people are loathe to accept that a product they've purchased might not be what they hoped it would (I'm not trying to say anything definitive, just that these are all potential factors that might impact what we see for feedback).

I wonder, too -- assuming this is under sudden power (re: diff engaging) -- if the stock rear motor mount is showing its weaknesses after being put through some heavier driving scenarios. RMM options for this car all seem to get rave reviews re: improving "smoothness" / "directness", for lack of better terms, under acceleration, in addition to helping put power down. Some of them reportedly are quite mild re: NVH (PRL in particular). Having said that, all those anecdotal reviews are subject to the same concerns as those for springs, so... who's to say?

The rmm will only really affect launch characteristics. It's the same dogbone mount effect that people with the gti and r were upgrading. You get moderate to significant nvh increase for less hop on a launch. Once you're past 5mph you'd be hard pressed to feel a difference. Maybe if you're dropping the clutch too fast between shifts you'd feel a bit less chirp from the tires, but unless the wheels break traction in mostly a straight line where both sides of the car are loaded evenly, the rmm isn't seeing much load. Cornering and putting power down, the stock rmm is already doing the job, and it sees barely any load as the other mounts take on more force on corner entry under braking. Once you apply power, you're still not fully loading or shocking that mount because there's a lot less weight transition than if you were sitting still to start.

If you're launching the car, especially in the wet, the rmm will provide better engagement.

Not worth the nvh, imo, but I don't have any desire to launch this car...

 

[RamVA]

If you push the wheels out (reduce the offset), you will get more torque steer. It's physics, it's unavoidable.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Winter tires are mounted!! This is the narrowest I would go on a 9.5" rim, and I'm genuinely impressed by how much lovely rim protection exists on these tires.

The stock ps4s in the dt specific sizing appear to be narrower in a 265 than these winters are in a 255. I wonder why they chose to design them this way?

 

[StingertimeNC]

for a second I thought that wheel was mounted already. was shocked at the lack of gap in the fender, LOL.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

for a second I thought that wheel was mounted already. was shocked at the lack of gap in the fender, LOL.

Next week my area is getting into icy/freezy weather finally. Usually it sleets or snows at least once by halloween, but this year was mild. I'm hoping that doesn't mean a brutal spring. I'll get them on this coming weekend to make sure I'm ready.

We'll see how much louder these are. 73db they read while ps4s read 71db.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

New winters are on! Fit is spot on and close to oem. These tires on 18s are more comfy, a lot quieter, and the sporty feel is still there for a winter tire! They do break loose in second gear wot at 40mph, but that's not so bad and definitely not the intent for a winter performance tire.

Taking off the summers after the track day, my suspicions were pretty close. The stock ps4s did well with the camber and pressure. That was the correct setup for the tire. It could maybe do a touch more camber in rear and on this track the driver front could have done with another 2 to 3 psi, but otherwise spot on.

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