ITS DE5 Warped Rear Brakes 10K Miles

[dockleryxk]

So your saying the rear brakes should last 100k miles?

hahaha at least!!!

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[creaturemachine]

Yeah those days are over. Rear drums on a small car used to last forever partly because they were enclosed and not exposed to the elements, and now that brake TC is a thing I guess we're never getting that back.

 

[optronix]

Get like me bro this was at ~12k miles

For real though, are you that hard on tires? Because if so, you’ve got about 3k miles left.

There’s a guy local to me that changes the front tires on his FK8 every 5k miles. That’s crazy, but equally as crazy as expecting over 20k miles from the OE tires if you’re driving them hard at all.

What are you doing differently? I'm not a tire expert, but this to me looks like normal wear, but WAY more than I'd expect at 12k miles. This is worse than my 911 was at that time. This car doesn't have an engineering excuse like a 911 does, it shares its underpinnings with a Honda Civic. So a couple pictures from one dude on a forum isn't really helpful in setting expectations that I should set aside $2k every year for new tires and brakes. (that said I'm switching to 200 TW tires next year and use all-seasons half the year so this whole conversation is probably moot but I'm still curious)

TL;DR- How often, how long, what kind of sustained pace, and what public roads are you driving on that lead to this? And obviously disclose any suspension mods.

Relative to this, I guess I'm not that hard on tires. Outside of the autocross and the one track day, I admit I don't go on the type of balls-to-the-wall mountain or canyon blasts that apparently some people do. At least not like this... the OUTSIDE shoulders of my tires are all sorts of fucked, but last time I checked the tread depth was fine. I'll take pictures and measurements when I get the summers off, hopefully this weekend.

Unless something has changed dramatically in the past few years, I am still firmly in the camp that no one should reasonably expect to blow through tires and brakes in the first 15k miles unless there are extenuating circumstances. I am curious to find out exactly what those circumstances have to be to see results like this picture. Brake vectoring shouldn't be this substantial unless there's a reason for it... and what I'm most curious about is just how intrusive the brake vectoring is during mostly street driving.

But anecdotally, the main reason for my pushback here is the last car I did have for longer than a year on the OEM tires was an F82 M4, on Pilot Super Sports. As we all know, those tires were superseded by the PS4S, and they lasted me over 30k miles- but I admit the only spirited driving that car ever saw was half of a track day. Brakes were replaced after that track day because the factory steel brakes on the F82 were trash and the pad material did not stand up to even my novice track driving... but they were replaced under warranty and still had plenty of pad left.

You guys really must be pushing the car Transporter-style to go through wear items like this.

 

[dockleryxk]

What are you doing differently? I'm not a tire expert, but this to me looks like normal wear, but WAY more than I'd expect at 12k miles. This is worse than my 911 was at that time. This car doesn't have an engineering excuse like a 911 does, it shares its underpinnings with a Honda Civic. So a couple pictures from one dude on a forum isn't really helpful in setting expectations that I should set aside $2k every year for new tires and brakes. (that said I'm switching to 200 TW tires next year and use all-seasons half the year so this whole conversation is probably moot but I'm still curious)

TL;DR- How often, how long, what kind of sustained pace, and what public roads are you driving on that lead to this? And obviously disclose any suspension mods.

Relative to this, I guess I'm not that hard on tires. Outside of the autocross and the one track day, I admit I don't go on the type of balls-to-the-wall mountain or canyon blasts that apparently some people do. At least not like this... the OUTSIDE shoulders of my tires are all sorts of fucked, but last time I checked the tread depth was fine. I'll take pictures and measurements when I get the summers off, hopefully this weekend.

Unless something has changed dramatically in the past few years, I am still firmly in the camp that no one should reasonably expect to blow through tires and brakes in the first 15k miles unless there are extenuating circumstances. I am curious to find out exactly what those circumstances have to be to see results like this picture. Brake vectoring shouldn't be this substantial unless there's a reason for it... and what I'm most curious about is just how intrusive the brake vectoring is during mostly street driving.

But anecdotally, the main reason for my pushback here is the last car I did have for longer than a year on the OEM tires was an F82 M4, on Pilot Super Sports. As we all know, those tires were superseded by the PS4S, and they lasted me over 30k miles- but I admit the only spirited driving that car ever saw was half of a track day. Brakes were replaced after that track day because the factory steel brakes on the F82 were trash and the pad material did not stand up to even my novice track driving... but they were replaced under warranty and still had plenty of pad left.

You guys really must be pushing the car Transporter-style to go through wear items like this.

I'll respond inline so it's clear. I'll also omit things that I find irrelevant:

What are you doing differently? I'm not a tire expert, but this to me looks like normal wear, but WAY more than I'd expect at 12k miles.

I never turned traction control down or off until a few weeks ago. I'm going to start doing this more and perhaps it will help (with the rear pads, not the tires lol)

This is worse than my 911 was at that time. This car doesn't have an engineering excuse like a 911 does, it shares its underpinnings with a Honda Civic.

Does it not? Creating such a capable FWD platform seems like an engineering excuse. We are asking a LOT of the front tires – more braking force, more stress from being the driving wheels, and spinning the wheels through 2nd for fun.

So a couple pictures from one dude on a forum isn't really helpful in setting expectations that I should set aside $2k every year for new tires and brakes. (that said I'm switching to 200 TW tires next year and use all-seasons half the year so this whole conversation is probably moot but I'm still curious)

I have already been doing this – summer tires in the warm and all seasons the rest of the year. The 12k I said early was approximate because I didn't use those tires over last winter.

I'm actually switching back to all seasons today with some new G025s, look out for that.

TL;DR- How often, how long, what kind of sustained pace, and what public roads are you driving on that lead to this? And obviously disclose any suspension mods.

I live 40 minutes from the tail of the dragon and go up at least every other week in the warm, less in winter.

I didn't have any suspension mods when I took that picture of the tire but now I have these: Spoon rigid collars // Eibach PRO-KIT lowering springs // RV6 rear sway bar, end links, and control arms .

TL;DRs should be at the bottom btw lol.

Relative to this, I guess I'm not that hard on tires. Outside of the autocross and the one track day, I admit I don't go on the type of balls-to-the-wall mountain or canyon blasts that apparently some people do.

I'd think AutoX and tracking would take your tires out more. I don't go balls-to-the-wall on public roads. I do go fast, but I leave plenty of room for error.

At least not like this... the OUTSIDE shoulders of my tires are all sorts of fucked, but last time I checked the tread depth was fine. I'll take pictures and measurements when I get the summers off, hopefully this weekend.

I can measure my summers later if you're curious. I bought some cheap 2021 Bridgestones on clearance from Tire Rack, and they might be my favorite

Unless something has changed dramatically in the past few years, I am still firmly in the camp that no one should reasonably expect to blow through tires and brakes in the first 15k miles unless there are extenuating circumstances. I am curious to find out exactly what those circumstances have to be to see results like this picture.

There's a distinction here IMO: OE tires are usually much worse. They aren't the same as buying the same tires aftermarket. They are optimized for the stat sheet and not the driving.

See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi7dtd9cNQ8

Brake vectoring shouldn't be this substantial unless there's a reason for it... and what I'm most curious about is just how intrusive the brake vectoring is during mostly street driving.

Try taking a corner a little too fast with traction control fully on – you'll hear it and feel it. Don't be scared, the car will save you lol

You guys really must be pushing the car Transporter-style to go through wear items like this.

I do and I know for a fact @Car00071 does too.

 

[creaturemachine]

If you lived through the early days of front wheel drive you'll remember how quickly it ate tires. Suspensions and tire compounds improved over the decades to make it a non-issue, but boost power into the mid-hundreds and add low-tw tires and the old problems come back. FWD will always be the weakest link.

 

[dockleryxk]

FWD will always be the weakest link.

Do you have to say it like that?!

 

[ST675R]

TL;DR- How often, how long, what kind of sustained pace, and what public roads are you driving on that lead to this? And obviously disclose any suspension mods.

I live 40 minutes from the tail of the dragon and go up at least every other week in the warm, less in winter.

This explains everything. Lucky ba$tard. So many great roads in that region.

 

[dockleryxk]

This explains everything. Lucky ba$tard. So many great roads in that region.

this was Sunday cruising. But I also got rear ended up there a few weeks ago lol

 

[optronix]

This explains everything. Lucky ba$tard. So many great roads in that region.

It really does. Extenuating circumstances identifie

The tail is what, 11 miles of some of the best twisties in the land? Doing that at a decent pace- probably not breaking any laws, substantially- every other week and yeah it all makes sense. And honestly, probably far worse than 1-2 track days.

There is probably some scientific explanation for why autocross is better or worse on tires. Yes, it is acute damage done by taking tires to their extreme limit, but the speeds are relatively low and it’s only ~1 minute at a time. 15-20 minutes of honing on the tail is probably way worse, undoubtedly on brakes.

I too am jealous, that road looks like amazing fun. I keep telling myself I’ll get out there someday but it’s about a 6-8 hour drive last I checked.

But finally no, I don’t think an Integra, even a Type S, has the same types of built-in compromises that a 911 would have. But yes, it’s a performance car and especially if it’s being used appropriately you’re going to be throwing money at wear items in perpetuity.

 

[dockleryxk]

It really does. Extenuating circumstances identifie

The tail is what, 11 miles of some of the best twisties in the land? Doing that at a decent pace- probably not breaking any laws, substantially- every other week and yeah it all makes sense. And honestly, probably far worse than 1-2 track days.

There is probably some scientific explanation for why autocross is better or worse on tires. Yes, it is acute damage done by taking tires to their extreme limit, but the speeds are relatively low and it’s only ~1 minute at a time. 15-20 minutes of honing on the tail is probably way worse, undoubtedly on brakes.

I too am jealous, that road looks like amazing fun. I keep telling myself I’ll get out there someday but it’s about a 6-8 hour drive last I checked.

But finally no, I don’t think an Integra, even a Type S, has the same types of built-in compromises that a 911 would have. But yes, it’s a performance car and especially if it’s being used appropriately you’re going to be throwing money at wear items in perpetuity.

I tried to tell you bro. @Car00071 lives in the midwest though so that's a mystery.

About the compromises, an FF and a RR car will not have the same compromises, but compromises nonetheless

BTW I haven't measured yet but my guy told me my summer tires are toast in the front. That was maybe 7k miles LOL

 

[Underdog]

Welp it looks like this is something I should expect to address in the next year or so.

Seems like Paragon pads are a pretty popular replacement on this platform. Are those of you with P2 or P3 pads pretty happy with your choice, for street driving?

 

[RamVA]

All the duty cycles are different:

- For street use, without being driven hard, it mostly comes down to having proper alignment, proper pressure, and (in this case) rotating the tires regularly. (It's easy on these cars, you can lift one side with a floor jack from the front jack point.
- Auto-X is obviously harder on the tires, but if you don't dial in a lot of camber it's not a big deal. If you do, and you street drive the car, expect the tires to wear faster, inside edge. The tires don't really get that hot, that's why one starts with a higher starting pressure.
- Stuff like the Tail of the Dragon is tougher, but it's harder on the brakes than the tires, assuming you're going 6-7/10ths (as one should).
- Track is very hard on both brakes and tires. It's 20-30 minutes all out, four times a day. Everything gets super hot, so you have to start with low pressure and upgrade pads and fluid. The thing that kills tires on track is not the tread depth, but the heat cycles. I can get maybe 20-24 out of mine (so 5-6 days), but I'll push it to 30 because I'm cheap and lazy.

That said, if you don't add negative camber and you regularly track your car the outer edges will get torn up, and might even cord before the tread is done. So, all trade-offs.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Welp it looks like this is something I should expect to address in the next year or so.

Seems like Paragon pads are a pretty popular replacement on this platform. Are those of you with P2 or P3 pads pretty happy with your choice, for street driving?

Just put on the P3 pads myself. I had the R5's on last week at the track and they were perfect IMO.

I've also had success running Hawk HPS 5.0's on the street. (Both ITS and previous car) In fact I'm running HPS 5.0's on the rear right now. Just a step up from stock.

 

[dockleryxk]

Just put on the P3 pads myself.

Same (but all around). They are so squeaky lol

 

[dockleryxk]

All the duty cycles are different:

- Stuff like the Tail of the Dragon is tougher, but it's harder on the brakes than the tires, assuming you're going 6-7/10ths (as one should).

I do, but I've also been driving it since I was 15 so my 7/10ths is destroying my car lol

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